Legislation to increase electric bike power?
Accessibity is not just about wheelchair access
April 25, 200721 years old! Congrats to Darwin’s Mindil Beach Market
April 27, 2007There is a huge amount of interest in power-assisted electric bikes!
After reading Ray Fealy’s comments in ‘Electric bike ‘limits’…can we change the law?‘ Graham Bradshaw, EO of the Retail Cycle Traders Industry – the national association for specialist bicycle dealers – has been in touch with PWF to say the industry has been working for two and half years on this task.
It has been immensely complex – a change in one area has meant another change elsewhere etc etc. BUT in a few weeks – subject to a ‘final agreement’ – electric bike riders may be looking at a 300w limit in line with New Zealand, above the European and Japanese limits of 250w, but below the US and Canada. This will give Australians access to the better technology available, computer controlled for longer battery life ‘and so on…’
Apparently there are a number of levels of assistance, depending on the country setting the rules, and while the industry would like lots of power, the bureaucrats in some states are not in favor, and neither is the pedestrian lobby.
Graham will keep us informed of progress and is interested in any feedback you care to pass this way. You can reach him via email:graham@rcta.org.au, P: 03 9376 1255 F: 03 9012 4219 M: 0417 339 265.
Comments on this post are now closed. The discussion is being continued here.
156 Comments
Now that its August I was wondering what the outcome from this proposal was? Are 300W bikes now allowed in Australia without a license?
peter
Good question – we’ll check it out.
I OWN AN ELECTRIC BICYCLE THAT HAS A 200 WATT MOTOR AND HAVE ALWAYS FOUND THAT IT JUST ISN,T ENOUGHT WHENIT COMES TO CLIMBING HILLS AROUND MY NEIBOURHOOD. THE 200 WATTRULE IS WAY TO SMALL TO BE OF REAL BENIFIT WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMBING A HILL,500, TO 750 WATTS AS IN CANADA AND THE U.S.A. WOULD BE THE WAY TO GO.
The pedestrian lobby!!! What is that exactly? How do bikes on a road affect pedestrians on a footpath? For that matter, how does a 40 km limit in the city (as has been proposed by a council member), “increase pedestrian safety”? I have never been hit by a car as a pedestrian, because I NEVER put myself in the same space that a moving car is about to legally occupy. What’s more, I will give this guarantee to all pedestrians right now; if you never put yourself into a space that my car or bike is about to legally occupy unavoidably, I will NEVER run you over, or hurt you in any way. That is rock solid, 100%. It is not a “non-core promise”. I don’t drive on footpaths; I’ve never run a red light. All I ask is that pedestrians walk on the footpath, and when you need to cross a road, make sure that I’m not about to drive over the same bit of road, at the same time, or the result will be worse than either of us can stand. What the pedestrian lobby is, is a group of people who hate cars and motorised transport with a passion (I don’t know why), and think that people walking around have more rights, for some reason, than someone driving a car (almost as though they think that cars just drive around by themselves for fun, in which case I’d agree with them). The fact is, forget wipe off 5 (km’s per hour), in fact, add 5, or ten, if you drive and you want to go faster. Don’t get me wrong, there are reasons not to add 5 or ten, but pedestrian safety is not one of those reasons. The woman in that ad where she gets hit at 30 km by a car that had been doing 65 km, but only knocked down at 5 km if the car had been doing 60, is an idiot, and whilst it is harsh, she deserves whatever happens to her. Why? Well, again, its harsh, but if you don’t turn your head to the right, then to the left, and then to the right again, and even if you do that, but don’t act on the information you gather (i.e., wait until any cars have gone past and the road is clear), then the punishment varies, but it can be death. That ad is dangerous because it doesn’t tell us the best outcome for crossing a road, nor how to achieve it. You can wipe off 5 until you’re going backwards, but as long as people still just walk out onto a road without looking, people will die, and the motorist involved made to feel like it was their fault. Most pedestrians are hit because they either didn’t look, or didn’t see; some are hit at crossings and that is a tragedy and most definitely the drivers fault; some are run over on footpaths by drivers who for whatever reason lost control and mounted the footpath which again is all about the driver, but these are not the people who would be saved by wiping off 5. The only people who would be saved by that and the 40 k limits that have popped up everywhere are kids (a separate issue and not really what the wipe off five campaign was about; five wasn’t nearly enough for that) and people who were either suicidal, or total and complete morons who, if they are dumb enough to just walk out onto a road, will probably find some other, equally moronic way of getting themselves killed even if we are ever able to remove the “danger” that roads pose to this particularly thick group of individuals.
Those of you who have read my other post may realise that this “pedestrian lobby”, and its concerns, are nothing more than one of those disingenuous “reasons” that the government can peddle to the masses in its quest to never do anything that does not have to do explicitly with geting reelected, whilst making sure that revenue from fines remains high. Un fortunately for us (those who would like to have electric bikes that are actually worth having), they listened to the pedestrian lobby when the pedestrian lobby called a meeting and basically said that everyone should be able to put a blindfold on when they leave the house in the morning, leave it on all day and return home safe and sound that night, so lets get angry at cars again. If you even listen to something as ridiculous as that, let alone act on it, you are going to have to listen to and act on absolutely everything that that idiot says, or people may wonder if you should have listened to anything from that person, past decisions then get questioned, and it starts to get tough for a politician to remember what they need to forget so as to avoid incriminating themselves. E even better than that; they invented themselves, with no effort required from any government bureau or department. For that reason they seem more credible too… political gold like that doesn’t just happen, normally you might need a few deaths, a good number of injuries, a large group of people doing nothing illegal, just driving cars really, and another group of people who not only do things ilegally when they cross against lights or right near pedestrian crossings, they are actually lobbying so that the car drivers take the rap.. oh hang on, that’s what we do actually have.
If I have a motor cycle license, will this allow me to legally ride an electric bicycle with a motor more than 200w?
A minimum of 500 Watts motor will be just enough for a 2 wheels E Scooter. I ride a 200W one along the Yarra River to work.
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I am wondering about if there is a set lobby form against local city council to increase bikes ? Any success anywhere so far ???
Up the limit dammit!
200W is plain not worth having!
I think I have this right… you are allowed a petrol engine up to 49cc. These pollute and cannot be considered in anyway green… and they can produce considerably more power than 200W – like up to 10 times the power!
Whats the deal here???
I wouldn’t mind 500 watts but then that would jack up the price of the bikes. A shop near me in Campbelltown,Sydney is selling bikes for $18oo a big ripoff and if you need spares forget it unless you got the bike from him.
I have been riding a Gia Carlo for 5 years and 200 Watts is way to small.
So do we have a change in regulation? Is the limit now 300W?
Not yet! It’s a slow process…
Hello,with all the concern about global warming you would think that the government would be bending over backwards to enable a viable alternative to pollutive transport.Ihave a petrol engined motorcycle but would certainly consider an electric powered one if the power and battery use time were more viable than the present regulations.Best regards Gary
What do the USA regulations have?
If it is 500 or 750 watts, we should have the same here.
If 300 million yanks can ride safely with that limit, why can’t 20 million aussies?
Somehow the governments in Australia think we must be dumber or not be able to handle all that excess power.
Obviously we are just not up to it.
Hi
there was an article in last weekends Newcastle herald about ‘confusion” regarding motorised bikes .Anyway the article has managed to confuse many with a claim that the RTA are looking at registration for bikes that have a hand throttle ,a place to rest your feet ,and removable pedals .The paper contacted a rep at the RTA who said that there have been no changes to the legislation but they had been looking at it .There was also a mention that the Wagga police command do not think that any form of motorised (electric /petrol I presume) is legal on the road .I emailed the RTA for a clarification as my business is at stake and also the people I have sold electric bikes to over the years would like to know .A rep got back to me promptly to say that my question had been passed on to the relavent person and I have had no answer thus far .(4 working days )
Will keep this forum posted
This is a thread that needs to not only be expanded upon greatly but pursued with vigor everywhere, by everyone. We need to really start lobbying pollies all over this country to not only increase the power limit to 500w (300w is still waay to restrictive), but considering where the petrol prices will be 5, 10 or even 20 yrs from now, half the population will be wanting these bikes to get around on. It will only be a matter of time before people start using increased wattages illegally anyway.
I think also that the various govt. agencies need to radically change thier tune when it comes to regulations as well. It’s up to people like us to start changing attitudes at grassroots levels.
I envisage a time (perhaps 20yrs from now?) when dual carraigeways will need to have one lane dedicated to cars/trucks and another to cycles.
I think that registering cycles like this may become the norm too as they use more roadspace. But that they obviously need to be registered at a fraction the price of other vehicles (considering thier size and impact upon the environment). It would be up to us to push that aspect before the heavyhanded pollies and govt. departments push their agenda’s. Get in first I say.
I have an electric scooter/ebike with a 180watt motor
recently i was charged with riding an unregistered/registerable class A motor vehicle, the police are of the opinion that regardless of the peddles it is a primary engine and needs to be registered. as i don’t have a license, this is a real problem and i stand to be disqualified for a further 5 years.
can anybody help me with this?
I’m thinking hard John.
I’m new to this thread
I have just brought a e-bike scooter without pedals big mistake having huge troubles getting pedal kit!!!
Thats another story though still working on this one.
US regulation for mopeds motors are 750watts with pedals and in some parts or states in Califoria it is 1000watts. I have the legislation if anyone is interested. Australia is really dragging the chain in that respect.
Most manufactures in China sell 300-350watts as a min and I have riden a Gia Carlo (180-200watts) and its top speed was 25-26km/h and my bike which is (china import) 200watts? does about 35km/h so I think that it is really around 350watts and is imported as 200watts. When you think about it how are the police going to tell without a dyno. There are also some interesting mods to keep the same motor and mod the bike to make it climb hills beter and go faster. Some bikes from China have even got high speed brushless motors which are geared down to give you the same speed but much higher torque.
I also have the RTA legislation stating the 200watt rule so the police can’t make up there own rules.
Thats what I think but the police are a law unto themselves how can we fight them when they are wrong!!!!!
John
Would taking the blinkers off help to make your unregistered/registerable class A motor vehicle more un registerable???
SCREW THE RTA and their grasping attempts at keeping their hefty vehicle revenue, thus keeping polluting vehicles on our roads.
Thus, it is an obvious loss of revenue for them to have too many registration free powered pushbikes frequenting our roads and bicycle paths. The uptake of which would occur much faster if higher power limits were allowed as it would extend their capabilities.
This is the sort of self serving backwards thinking that has delayed climate change action in the forms of alternative transport and energy to a pathetic snails pace.
With our government claiming that climate change is a top priority for our near and distant future, they then act like hipocritical clowns and put a pathetic 200watt limit on assisted bicycle transport. The most logical economic/green option for the majority of Australians that have a work commute less than 30klms.
I HAVE A 1000WATT MOTOR KIT ATTACHED TO MY BICYCLE. It has no stickers/engravings on it anywhere stating its power output, so how is a cop going to know? nothing short of a dyno could be used to convict me in a court, but of course if the cop wanted to he’d book you anyway, just like with a car.
For those that think this sort of power equals dangerous top speeds well yes and no. As it has a hand throttle, i only use full power up inclines and dont push it past ~50kph. This makes the batteries last longer and i wouldnt want to go any faster with only bicycle brakes.
Just like any car that can go much faster than the speed limit, a bicycle should have the same right to engineering liberties that would enable faster acceleration and the ability to maintain speed up steep hills, a biproduct of which is a higher top speed.
My opinion is its not the motor power to blame for an accident caused by the rider, its the rider himself.
As for getting caught by the Police, how are they going to pull you over when you can travel across terrain a car cant make it accross. Apart from the odd motorcycle cop…ill take my chances untill the law is changed – unlikely – or a bike registration cost is applied – far more likely.
I have an i-spec 200W e scooter to ride into town and back (6km) to save driving the car. Today the police pulled me over and tried to tell me the bike was not allowed on the road as it was un-resisted.
The max speed is 35km/hr and I was led to believe by the importer that no license was required in NSW as long as you wore a helmet and you could ride on the road or footpath.
The cop let me go in the end saying it is a Grey area in the law and to try not to ride on the road if possible, but neither of us were left knowing what the RTA rules are in NSW. I looked at the RTA website and found nothing definitive. Any body know?
woops!!! typo I mean un-registered
Who has the final say the RTA or Police?
If it is the police heaven help us!
Haven’t they got better things to do than pick on the owner of a power assist bicycle who is trying to reduce his/her carbon footprint.
If the legislation states a bicycle with a power assist of equal or less than 200watts what is the problem?????
Don’t the police have to abide/follow the NSW legislation on the 200watt rule? if so how can the police tell you to get off the road, what law or legislation are they trying to use??.
At the end of the day these scooters are a bicycle with power assist as Stated by NSW Legislation and Australian Standards and just a few fancy plastic panels to make the look nice.
If the bicycle needs to be registered (which costs $100 and $127 for a green slip) then this will open up a big can of worms for who is to say why don’t bicycles need to be registered????? there on the road too and following the traffic rules like we are??? this would make the Greenies turn in there grave and make the government insentive for riding to work to reduce green house emisions a huge joke. So as you can see the arrguement has huge holes in it. If they make us register our bicycles with power assist it will have a very bad spin off affect for everybody how rides a bike in general and it would be egg on the governments face.
WHO CAN WE TALK TO TO GET ANSWERS AND TO GET THE POLICE OFF OUR BACKS?
Prehaps a Current Affair maybe?
Your questions go unanswered because there is not enough awareness of the issue/s. Everyone knows that politicians pay the most attention to the issues with the lion’s share of the spotlight.
YES! Get the media involved. The time is perfect, the steep rise in petrol prices has seen to that.
I don’t have a bike yet, but I really need to get one in the next couple of months so I’m willing to go on TV to say I’m confused and disappointed by the current legislation. How about you? Do you just want to bitch on the Internet or try to make a real difference?
http://www.gazellebicycles.com.au/collection/e-bicycles/innergy?task=view
I attempted to buy an electric scooter on Saturday last in Grafton NSW. I wish to ride between Woolgoolga and Coffs Harbour; to and from work. I was told that the company importing the scooter had lost the court case to allow us to ride their 200W electric scooters as commuter transport on the road, because although the RTA say the scooters comply with road rules and regulations the NSW Police do not agree and are confiscating machines. The scooters allegely look too much like motor cycles. Can anyone confirm this statement? Look forward to replies.
Today 16th june channel 10 news sydney stated that electric bicycles are no longer to be ridden in public
I DIDN’T SEE THE ARTICLE MYSELF BUT WAS TOLD OF IT BY MY WIFE. ALL ATTEMPS TO FIND OUT MORE HAVE THUS FAR FAILED. DID ANYONE ELSE SEE THE ARTICLE OR IS MY LEG BEING PULLED AGAIN?
It is not likely to happen. The human-powered bicycle has been around a long time and has proven itself practical, efficient and safe. They have limitations though, as they wouldn’t pass most of the ADRs that other vehicles have to meet. In particular, their breaking distance is truly woeful being about three times as far as a car going the same speed. This is ok though as bikes don’t generally go the same speed as other vehicles.
You are asking to upgrade the power of vehicles without upgrading their safety. 200 watts is quite a bit of power and a rider needs to be fit to produce the same power. Yet most people can get over most hills without any assistance at all.
If you need more speed then you need to be responsible and meet the same design rules that other vehicles meet. You need to ensure your faster vehicle stays safe and therefore you need road-worthiness inspections. You need to be insured for the greater harm and damage that your faster vehicle can potentially cause. In short you need a moped. This is what you get when you upgrade a bicycle. These are legal in all states but rules differ from state to state.
I saw on the sydney tv news (not sure what station)10:45pm 16th June that electric bicycles are OK and the female reporter was riding one saying how good they were and stated some go as fast as 50kmh the bicycles all had 26″ brushless hub motors. The report showed people even the seller riding around without pedaling saying how great it is and the seller saying how he can’t keep up with demand and enquires. The seller also stated he was not sure on the law for electric bicycles that look like scooters? My argument is what is the difference apart from a few plastic panels?????
In the newcastle Herald today 17th it has two articales one states how the law for electric bicycles has not changed and how some police are booking scooter ridders and other police are not. Some are are going to court and getting aquited and some are losing. Queenslands courts have ruled Brushless hub motors as being OK.
The other articale states that the courts have now ruled against e-bikes with internal motors eg. brushless hub motors as not been allowed on the roads because it is the primary means of transport. Isn’t that what the electric bicycle is with it’s internal brushless hub motor. The court said the motor must be clip-on and the e-bike must be a bicycle…
The scooters can be registered as long as they are sold with a compliance plate and meet required standards.
Surley you can get a blue slip and register it? But that defeats the whole purpose of low powered e-bikes.
What is going ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One Seller of e-bikes in Newcastle has closed shop because of this.
Scooter and e-bike seller, riders and owners need help FAST.
Who can we turn to???
I have the newspaper articals if anyone is interested
Just spoke to the RTA
and it’s all over for me with my 200watt electric scooter looks like a petrol scooter with pedals.
Can’t ride on the road and can’t register because I have no compliance plate so I’m stuck.
Looks like I have to sell it in Queensland or let it sit forever in the garage.
Farewell to a small carbon footprint dream.
here’s the new RTA law on electric scooters for NSW ONLY
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/otherinformation/scootersminibikes.html?rlid=6
Electric bicycles are OK
just looked at new regulations and wonder why the difference between a pushbike with a motor and gia carlo (motor in hub and looks like a motor scooter. see 1 at tebco.com)and why the change all of a sudden. i have been ridding for 5 years and no hassled at all.now it seems that my bike will stay at home and i will have to walk the 5kms to work each day.this is going to hurt a lot of bike shops.
is there an explanation for the changers or is it somone that doesn’t like bikes on the road.this suxs i will move to anothe country where i can ride legally anyone want to come with me
The problem is that e-bikes fit the exact description of a moped. According to the Australian road rules, mopeds are light pedal assisted motorbikes. They do need a compliance plate and do need to be registered. They only have to comply with a reduced set of ADRs and have a limit of 50cc engines and 50kph. In some states you can ride them with a car drivers license.
Question
Can our scooters be put under the class of Mopeds??
just got a letter from the rta it turns out that a company imported a bunch of electric motor bikes and put peddles on them
to get around the laws. these bikes were unpeddlable because of the sprocket ratio and have closed their doors since.
the good news is anyone with a gia carlo (electic bicycle company) can still ride without needing rego
THIS IS FROM THE RTA ANY QUIRIES CONTACT MANAGER LIGHT VEHICLE STANDARDS ph 029218 638
goody i can still ride mine
We’ve started a new post with 10 questions about electric bikes. Can you help?
There is the current problem. Common sense, some people in the RTA, riders, (I suspect some police) and most people would think that these e-bikes should be legal on the road. After all, it is goes like a bike, stops like a bike and otherwise is a safe as a bike then it should be treated like a bike. Unfortunately the letter of the law is that they are pedal assisted motorcycles rather than power assisted bicycles.
The RTA has to comply with the legislation and I don’t think that the legislation has given the RTA discrationary power to exempt vehicles from registration. If this is true then all that you have is bad advice from the RTA and this isn’t protection from prosecution.
Ultimately, when it comes to the police and the courts, they have to apply the law as it is written. That is why that guy got fined recently (see: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/when-is-a-bike-not-a-bike-when-its-electric/2008/06/15/1213468240544.html).
If people from the RTA are giving out this advice then it is directly conflicting with with their own web site:
– The Australian Vehicle standards that show the difference between a pedal assisted motorbike and a power assisted bicycle (see: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_27_-_mopeds_and_motor_assisted_pedal_cycles_nov_2007.pdf)
– Last month the RTA clarified the difference betweens (see: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/newsevents/2008_05_motoriseddevices.html)
– The rta have published information that clearly shows the difference:
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/otherinformation/scootersminibikes.html?rlid=6
In all three of cases, e-bikes are definitely pedal assisted motor bikes and need to be registered. I have been unable to find an example that says that these bikes are street legal.
Hi Berni
Can you repost that phone no. again as I tried it and it said said that the no. was incomplete
sorry stephen it was my dislexia again (lol)02 9218 6838
Thanks Bernie
Ive just tried the no. but no answer
I will try again on Monday
Have just got” bacvk in town” and seen the uror over ebikes at the moment. I also now understand why my emails, phone and webiste has quadrupled in the last week. Our products are still ‘legal’.
I have a full copy of the recommdations proposed by the RTA for uniform laws of eBikes. the issue of relevance is a single isse but two fold. The issue relates to primary vs auxillary power and ‘reasonbale assessment’ of defining this. In other words PEDALS must be the primary source of power and be ‘resonably’ functional. Moped style eBikes to not have ‘reasonable’ functioning pedals.
An expansion of this recommendations is to ban ANY TYPE of bike that provides any type of foot rest.
Hope that helps some understand better.
Allan
The BFA web-site has a copy of the RTA submission on the law change. It looks like everything will change: Power_assisted_bikes_NSW_RTA_paper_2008.pdf
Allan Dow has emailed us saying he is the engineer who designed the E-Lation System which is legal all over Australia. He wants to let people know there IS a LEGAL system and it is actually Australian designed and doing well and ready to accommodate the
changes proposed since his business focusses on this market’s needs. Allan’s response to Craig B saying everything will change is:
“Yes and No. A lot of this has been under discussion for over a year and should be no surprise to those tracking the industry. Our system is not only legal under current regulations but also proposed changes.
300W is one of the recommendations in a paper tabled by through RTA in Feb 08. There are a number of recommendations. Sadly I lot of this is not new, but like any industry some companies set out to maximize profit while they ‘got away with it’.
PEDALS must be the primary source of power and be ‘reasonably’ functional. Moped style eBikes to not have ‘reasonable’ functioning pedals.
For those caught up in companies making claims of legality it is unfortunate. Our business is located in Brisbane. For NSW people interested in off-loading their (now) illegal product I may be able to assist. Contact me via email at our website http://www.elationebikes.com.au/.”
The NSW supreme court rulling is in fact banning all “electric bikes” of all size & shape with hub motors. Since all existing electric bikes currently on the market can start without ever having to pedal and so their motor is “primary propulsion”. So whether you own a scooter style ebike or a conventional style ebike, they are ALL illegal. And if the RTA says only the scooter style is illegal, then they are simply discriminating against a product specifically due to its shape. This would in fact be illegal since Australian Design Rules (as set by ACT Department Of Transport And Regional Services ) definition does not set any regulations regarding size & shape of a pedal cycle. What happens if someone disconnects the battery on their scooter-style ebike and just pedals, is that still illegal?
Can the elation kit bikes start by electric only without using pedals? If so, these would also be illegal. The electric biycle industry in NSW is being pushed back 20 years because of those discruntle cops who started all this problems!
C’mon people, contact NSW Road Minister and let him know how this will effect you personally.
The Hon. Eric Roozendaal,
Parliament House,
Macquarie Street,
Sydney NSW 2000
Phone (02) 9228 3535
Fax (02) 9228 4469
Email enquiries.roads@roozendaal.minister.nsw.gov.au
Luc has emailed us saying he thinks the elation type of electric bike should be able to get around the 200W limit the best because it uses the existing gears on the bike, lots of other systems run directly to the front or rear wheel and dont make use of the gears and therefore struggle on the hills, so yes, he thinks its a good idea. Probably needs a bit more refining as it looks big and heavy…. but these things take time!
Honestly, everyone in here who is complaining about laws is just wasting their time. If you want something more appealing than a 30km/h weak ride, then make it yourself. My e-bike does 43km/h top speed and some others have made some (in Quebec Canada) that can travel 80km/h. The technology is where you live also! Law enforcers will not stop you if “your going” 32km/h (or whatever the law is in your area) but your ebike can still do “well over that”. Remember, it’s all at your control, so is it safe or sorry you want to be?. Just do your show offs on your only land or in dirt trails where it can no way pose harm to the public. The law never said you can’t build your own electric bike at whatever speeds. It only talks for bikes on the market, you still have free will. In others words, there is nothing wrong with an ebike (you constructed) that goes 80km/h IF USED “ONLY” AT 32KM/H on public roads. Otherwise, use at your own risk of possibly loosing your bike. I have passed by law enforcers many times and since I will only do 5-10km/h more than ave. they NEVER bother. Cars drivers that are doing 20/km OVER THEIR SPEEDLIMITS, is much more of a logical concern for them.
Gail, your facts are not completely right AT ALL. MY dad owns an e-bike with a hub motor, uses no gears. I own an e-bike with a non-hub motor which uses the bikes gears. I consume more power and have a bit less hill climbing ability than him. He would be able to go up steeper hill grades than me and NOT STRUGGLE. He uses 36vdc, 750w, x5305 crystalite hub kit. Buy this kit and see the power for yourself. Some people have even moded their controllers and upgraded the batteries to give them 80km/h. See on youtube.
One thing that lots of people would find odd: 200 watts is more power than most people can sustain for any reasonable distance on a bike, why isn’t it enough power for a power assisted bike? My guess is that the motor on most e-bikes drive the wheel without going through the gears (ie hub motors) so the motor has a single fixed gear (even if there are gears on the pedals). This means that it has to be a compromise and it will either give poor performance at very low speeds (ie up hill) or poor performance at very high speeds or both. In the eLation system, power goes through all the gears and the performance claims of the eLation system are in line with the performance that you would expect from 200watt person power. This seems very acceptable and given that the rider can pedal too, with a little pedalling, this bike seems able to smash the abilities of serious athletes.
If you read the RTA submission and other submissions found on the BFA web-site, the trade off for increasing the power may be that the power assistance cuts out above 24kph and the power-assistance may need to be pedal activated.
A question for Luc: How powerful is your geared e-bike that you are comparing with your dad’s 750watt bike?
What is the real problem with size or shape or even type of bike wether electric , petrol or human power.
this is a Democratic country and that allows us the people to have a say in what the laws are and do. IF WE ALLOW an agency or other organization to make the laws without any input or review then we nolonger have a democratic say in our own lives.
Has any one seen any statistics regarding road accidents involving electric bikes,I HAVE NOT. If speed is the only problem then we should ban all types of bikes from the road even pushbikes,Given a steep enough hill a pushbike can travel at speeds over 60kms.
Raising the motor output to 300watts will have little effect on statistics as will the shape or type of bike.
BUT the RTA has a duty of care when it comes to road use so any change has to be looked at over and over again untill the best outcome is reached,THIS IS THE SAME NOMATTER WHAT INDUSTRY THERE IS IT IS SIMPLY THE LAW and they would be remiss to ignor it.
WOW, a bit of catch up reading.
First MJ: Your statement claiming Supreme Court is incorrect. The REASON the ruling went against scooters was that the electric motor is the PRIMARY source. Please, anyone, feel free to pedal one of those monsters (no motor assist) the same distance you wish to ride and then tell me the pedal are a functioning part of the design.
The eLation system IS a bike and can continue to be ridden as such; the motor is therefore the AUXILARY source. The same for hub motors. So they are CURRENTLY within the scope of the law.
The Feb 2008 RTA paper does RECOMMEND that electric bikes should have a pedal interlock system that will allow the motor only to operate while the rider pedals. The eLation System ALREADY HAS THIS ABILITY in anticipation of new rules, but does not need to be ‘activated’ until then. The eLation system is legal now and ready to STAY legal if all the RTA recommendations come in to play.
The reason we are able to do this is that we have focused on where the industry is going and not the almighty dollar. It was widely known for about two years that the motor scooters with “attachable” pedals were using a loop hole. They were sold for profit, not public interest.
Luc: Without even having to try the hub system in question your statement of performance can be disputed. If two motors provide the SAME output power at the shaft and then one of those motors utilises further gearing then PYHSICS (not eLation) dictate that the geared system will be able to provide far interested torque. So the system than has the ability to be geared down from shaft speed will wins hand down on torque Hill climb ability) > ENGINEERING FACT, not marketing fiction
General: Comparing to the North American market is of little use. Their approach, as with many things over there, is conquering the issue with brute force. Gears are placed on systems to allow a smaller power source handle large loads. Why do cars and bikes have gears if they don’t serve a similar purpose for the eLation system.
By attaching a 750W motor sure you will go up any hill without gears. The same could be said for putting a V12 in a mini. But is it the best way to do it???
A hub motor is like putting your car in 3rd gear all the time. It WILL WORK, but is it the optimum or most efficient solution. NO> ENGINEERING FACT, not marketing fiction
So instead of everyone throwing around “commy rhetoric” why not start considering efficient use of what is available NOW, and improve on it, support it and rally for it. We just completed a show put on by RACQ in QLD. We did not apply to attend, nor did we pay like other stands. We were invited at no cost because of what we are trying to achieve. People who tried out system AND HAD TRIED HUBS, were blown away by the difference. Until a person tries all options they need to stop the ramblings and mis-informed statements.
This applies not only to systems but laws and regulations that currently stand and future. Try getting educated first instead of criticising first.
One final thing; the eLation is an Australian designed and assembled system. Only components that cannot be produced in Australia are sourced overseas. This has meant we support Australia but more importantly we are able to consider feedback AND IMPLEMENT IT, to better suit our needs (and other hilly terrains). Try getting a hub seller to do same.
Allan
Allan,
1. If eLation is not for profit & only for public interest, why dont they register as a not for profit organisation and sell at cost?
2. Please point out any legislation outlining the requirements for a “pedal cycle” to be pedalled a minimum distance before it can be classed as “pedal cycle”.
3. “Only components that cannot be produced in Australia are sourced overseas”. What is the percentage of Australian made to outsourced components on the eLation system?
4. Why should people pay $1300 for just a kit that can be imported and retail for $600 or a complete hub motor ebike for $1000 on ebay?…..serious????? not for profit and Aussie interest at heart?
5. “to better suit our needs (and other hilly terrains)” are you saying only people who lives in hilly areas will consider ebikes? The majority of the metro city terrain is flat and so the need for a system that deal with hills is only limited and should not be claimed as the main issue why eLation geared system is better than hub motors.
6. Since there are more hub motors than kit system on the road, therefore proving hub motor is a far more attractive option to consumers than the kit system period!
7. Why should the law be allowed to dictate when and where the people must pedal and for how long? If people seriously want to pedal, they just use a standard push bike.
8. What is the logic of requiring the bike to start off using pedals for one/two revolutions and then the “secondary motor” to engage? Electric power would still be used more than pedals.
9. “So instead of everyone throwing around “commy rhetoric” why not start considering efficient use of what is available NOW, and improve on it, support it and rally for it.” So why aren’t you doing the above mentioned for the hub motors since it is more readily available than kit system?
Dear MJ,
I am not linked to eLation in any way, not an employee, don’t own one, don’t know anybody with one, didn’t hear of them before reading about them on this web-site a little while ago, but I think your comments are not justified.
1. While I don’t think that Alland was trying to portray eLation as anything more than a good corporate citizen, it is clear that he was putting a slur on the importers who have been passing illegal vehicles off as bicycles. At the least, these guys importing the “scooter” type vehicles have failed in their diligence to check this, at worst they have deliberately mislead their customers. The actual NSW regulations are on the web, they are very short and simple and if you apply some common sense, these scooter type bikes are clearly not legal to ride on the road. These guys deserve all that they get. (There are still lots of these things on e-bay being promoted as not needing to be registered.)
2. You are right that the rules do not require a test of how far you can ride a bike, but they do say: “bicycle means a vehicle with 2 or more wheels that is built to be propelled by human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not it has an auxiliary motor), and:…”. (From the Road Rules 2008). While the intention of this rule is clear, it is not very specific. I agree with Alland that being able to ride it like a bike for a reasonable distance is a fair test. It is just common sense.
3. I can’t comment on your third point, but I bet that eLation has more Australian content then 100% imported Chinese bikes.
4. If you don’t want to pay $1300 for a better product then don’t. If eLation are charging too much then they wont make sales. There are alternatives, Epac (also Australian), Cyclone. You get what you pay for.
5. I think that your point 5, misses Alland’s point altogether. AllanD is just saying that a local manufacturer is going to give better support for dealing with local issues than one from Taiwan.
6. I disagree with your assessment of the number of hub bikes on the road. I have only seen the type with the motor on a rack above the back wheel. I have seen mostly hub bikes in the shops though. Maybe I don’t notice the hub bikes as they are quieter. Do you have any sources?
7. I think you are arguing with the wrong people on point 7 and 8. It is the law that: “comprising a pedal cycle to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts.” (From the NSW Vehicle Registration Regulations.) If you read this, people should be pedalling all of the time and the power assist is auxiliary. I read the transcript of the recent court case where the judge ruled that the power assist was not auxiliary. In my opinion, the case went downhill when the plaintiff admitted that she would only ride without power assistance when the battery was flat. (As an aside, the Wagga police have interpretted this rule to prohibit hub bikes as the hub motor is integral to the bike and not “attached” – I think that they are wrong.)
8. The logic of requiring a bike to start off using pedals has come from the RTA submission on changing the law. I think that this is to be in keeping with the spirit of “auxiliary” power. In any case, the eLation people are just being prepared should it ever happen.
9. I can think of two ways to improve hub motors. The aim would be to get them generating 200 watts of power at all speeds. One way is to build internal gears into the hub. The eLation system uses all of the bikes gears (usually about 20). You can get non-powered hubs with 3 internal gears. If you can increase this number and fit a motor in the hub then it would be revolutionary.
The other way to improve hub motors is to develop a motor that has a flat power curve. As power is a product of speed, this is going to be difficult. You might try putting a much more powerful motor in the hub, say 1000watts, but electronically restricting its power to 200watts across all speeds. It would be interesting to see what the RTA would say about this.
I am sorry but powering a bike with a motor that doesn’t go though any gears is like riding a bike without gears – you don’t have a gear low enough to go up hills and you don’t have a gear high enough to go fast along the flat.
I apologise to Alland if I have misread any of his points.
I can’t compete with all this technical talk going on.
Just wanted to let any other e-bike/scooter/moped owners that have brought an illegal bike and are stuck like me. I spoke to the guy how wrote Power_assisted_bikes_NSW_RTA_paper_2008.pdf
I said would do what it takes to get back on the road rego, auto motorbike license, green slip etc… and he said that the paper was just a proposal sent out to all government departments etc and they have received over 60 recommendations and it will take more R&D and time to come up with fixes for the current issues and “it won’t happen any time soon so don’t ride your scooter on the road as police are targeting your style of bike” his PA said it may take 2-3 years and said that there is no-one in the RTA that can help me.
Overall the phone call was not pleasant and gave me no answers or help just get off the road.
It makes it hard to keep think well of the RTA and Police when they wont seem to compromise even when I said I could get the bike checked by an automotive engineer and fix anything that does not comply to ADR rules for the LA moped class they just didn’t want to listen.
So I am going to Motorcycle license and go and buy a petrol scooter a shame as I am trying to reduce my carbon pootprint.
Sorry if I have interrupted the current train of thought going on at the moment.
You guys just keep going.
Perhaps some of the electric bicycles that are for sale right now, are not very safe or of a very good quality and that might be the reason they are now *unlaw*ful to ride?
I am waiting with great impatience for a much better bicycle coming on the market, namely a Dutch one. The Dutch are the experts in top quality and SAFE bicycle production. I have heard that in Sydney the first Dutch bicycles (Gazelle) are being delivered in a month or so. They first are importing the normal bikes and are doing research for the electric bike.
to brigitte:
great to hear about those Dutch bikes!!!! do you have any more information as to where and what? address? company importing?
I think riding the real mccoy, to say with freedom of speech, is awesome. Awaiting the arrival of Dutch bikes for me and my mates, fairdinkum!
Environment, here we come.
Hi All
This is a first. I actually got a PHONE CALL from a person who just wanted to tell me that some guy was “ripping into me” . Since Craig B has provided such an eloquent response to MJ I will only touch on some points.
I am not going to touch on issues of law or regulations. I have done my talking to the people that matter, not forums.
Sometimes I do wonder if I am doing it for no profit. I spend a LOT of my time answering questions about ebike and technology in general. I have offered my time (and been accepted) to write articles about the technology and how to best choose a product to suit individual (not always an eLation). I have been asked to talk to Smart Travel QLD, to offer my thoughts on the future of ebikes, etc, etc. I was sent a copy of the RTA proposal and asked for comment (as were other naturally). I spend a LOT of time educating people on why ebikes should be considered a viable form of transport.
Now add to that that I put a LOT of ‘profit’ back into improving what we are currently stuck with on the market. The EPAC system and Cyclone system have not changed since birth.
If MJ did his/her homework they would most likely agree that the eLation is the best VALUED system out there based on its technology and performance. I never set out to offer a cheap system or to compete with the rubbishy end of Chinese products.
I am not trying to tout eLation as the only solution. I think Hub bikes have a place also, but not in hilly terrains with their current designs.
With regard to the comment “Since there are more hub motors than kit systems on the road, therefore proving hub motor is a far more attractive option to consumers than the kit system period!” Hmmm, there was once more horses on the roads than cars!!!! That did not necessarily mean it was the best option. SO does MJ feel no one should strive to improve the existing technology.
I will stress that the hub system is suited for flat or slight hill environments, so IT DOES HAVE A PLACE.
Now with regard to the eLation system. It first appeared on The New Inventors in 2006. At the time I was advised that another system had tried earlier but was seen to be inadequate. The system was voted Viewers Choice for the night and was in the Grand Final.
There must be something right with what it does as we continue to sell out of stock. Our waiting list currently extends to Sept.
Me, well I am an Electrical Fitter Mechanic who also has a degree in Electronic Engineering and STRONG mechanical cross training thanks to years in the Navy. I worked a lot of my life as a control systems engineer. Most of this time was trying to figure out how to improve on process. I do what I do now for pleasure of my work, I assure you it is not for the big money anymore :).
I have never said I agree with all the rules out there, but I have STUDIED them so I fully understand what is required to design to by law. With that goal in mind I set about improving what we had within the regulations. I tried to make a positive improvement to what is available, rather than just complaining about it in forums. Forums should spread ideas not complain. I would be interested in what constructive dialog MJ has had with the policy makers.
I am not totally in agreement with the regulations, so I just work within the guidelines in place NOW. For those who try the eLation I KNOW you would be surprised how much better the performance is for the LEGAL 200W system over an equivalent power hub motor.
Finally, I am not resting on my current ‘achievements’, I still believe there are ways to improve performance while staying inside the law (now and future), and this INCLUDES hub motor design and a complete bottom up design ebike.
It was the brute force approach that has our environment where is it now. More efficient design cost a lot more but for smaller returns. That is why big business ignores it and takes the easy (often more polluting) way out. I am not a radical greeny, just someone who wants to improve on what we have without all the rhetoric.
Thanks for listening.
Alland & Craig B
A full 26″ mountain bike 200W conversion kit (hub motor, complete) can be manufactured for $115(USD) …
The retail price of your Elation Kit is rather laughable …
Your clear intent is to use this forum to your business benefit under the current regulatory cloud and resulting confusion …
I’m an engineer of 25 years standing and many of your facts and statements fall into the category of ‘conflict of interest’ or ‘Moral Hazard’.
Perhaps you should pay for advertising, rather than use a forum to advertise and misinform for free ?
Re Dutch Electric Bicycles, for all intents and purposes, are volume manufactured to order in China, shipped, rebadged and cleverly marketed …
China, by and large, makes the worlds Electric Bicycles and components. The qaulity is determined by the buyer/importers production price and QC efforts. China effectively has the mass production scale and the skills, not to mention sitting on most of the Rare Earth magnets needed for the motors … SLA, NiMh and Li-Ion battery production ? …
The real issue should be how to address the NSW RTA and NSW Police forces determination to redefine what has been the accepted definition of an electric bicycle for years … and at a time when we need to address Climate Change and peoples cost of living …
As far as the RTA and police are concerned if your Electric Bicycle can be ridden by use of a throttle, without pedalling, then its a motor bike … whether it’s a 16″ Folding Electric, A 26″ Electric Mountain Bike or a plastic fairing styled E-Bike …
That’s not what the ADRs say, nor the enabling national road Rules, or the enabling Commonwealth legislation and is out of kilter with Federal Import standards for Electric Bicycles …
This is purely and simply an issue of revenue retention re registration and licensing by the beurecrats at the RTA and arbitrary/unilateral enforcement by the police …
As suggested above, contact the Minister of Police and Local Member, or the next thing we know, ordinary bicycles and tricycles will be banned or have to be ‘compliance plated’ and registered/licensed …
Please don’t loose the plot Outraged. Also I would ask you to vent your anger at me, not Craig B. I assure you I do not know this person and he is only offering his opinion and gains nothing beyond that.
What you say is true, you can probably MANUFACTURE such a system for USD115, but that is not what is retails for. You can buy a new car for $15000 or +$50000. So am not sure what you point is here. People can select what they like based on budget and quality.
All I have stated is that hub motors CANNOT perform with same torque as geard down motor. As an “engineer of 25 years” you should even be able to see that.
Maybe you could also enlighten me on statements I have made that “fall into the category of ‘conflict of interest’ or ‘Moral Hazard’.” If I have then I will review your feedback and change the statements to remove any such reflection.
Not sure why “Dutch” comment thrown at me also as never mentioned it.
You then go on to argue with yourself by saying that quality is driven by price and QC, even out of China. I TOTALLY AGREE, hence why the eLation system costs more than the USD115 kit you are championing.
I also think you misunderstand ADR. The ADR is a set of DESIGN Rules, I believe you mean to refer to DOTAR, the federal governing body for imports and regulations of these products.
Your statement commencing “As far as the RTA and police …” could you please provide a substantiated report of this. I will freely offer my time to support that person in court as an expert witness and would feel very confident of having fine dismissed, IF it is fact and not just (add your own word here).
The cases I have read of I agree with the finding of the court. They are primarily propelled by electric motor with add on pedals. Am I going to change that finding by loosing the plot on forums like this; not likely.
Again I would put to Outrage the same challenge I have to MJ and that is what CONSTRUCTIVE comments have you made to the people that CAN change the rules and make decisions??????
Finally, I can’t help myself here but: Do you really think you need an electric bike?? As you seem to sit very well on top of your high horse (Oh I am so naughty 🙂 )
Just me again 🙂
One point I would suggest that all people should consider who do want to make a positive attempt at changing regulations by contacting the revelant people.
Don’t just blurt out that you are unhappy or don’t want it to happen. It will get you as far as going to your boss and asking for pay rise WITHOUT JUSTIFYING WHY.
Most comments I read seem to be just a whinge against the law, a whinge about freedom to do as we please, etc etc.
For exmaple I hear a lot of people saying that more power will be better? Why?
An example is the PROPOSED removal of the throttle. Rather than just say “don’t do it”, I have made a number of statements to support keeping it. These include better control of power/speed in confined locations. Greater ability for infirmed or weaker people to control bike without extra effort. Same for asthmatics and the elderly.
If you just say you want a throttle because it is your right or more speed, etc, or do not try and justify at all then you will get nowhere.
How many of you are bosses out there that will just take any and all requests without a justification/explanation as to WHY??
I know I won’t; and that is why a better moustrap was built that can go up hills.
Alland
Pointless. Your arrogance and presumption is astonishing.
ADRs, formerly DOTARS, National Road Rules and enabling Commonwealth Law are all interlinked, from which is derived the various State Transport or Road Safety Acts and subsequent Regulations … could reference the AB category, the Matheson NSW Supreme Court case, or even the legislative history, going back 60+ years of how this all came to be (Design Rules, Legislation, Definitions …) however, why don’t you just proceed to Hijack this forum for your personal business benefit, you apparently intend to do so regardless … keep hitting ’em for six with a brickbat …
High horse ? Hm, and the leviathon you’re astride … ?
Expert witness ? Hah !
I have a number of Electric Bicycles, an Electric Ultralight, an electric Motorbike, an electric Qaud bike, an electric car … of my own design, specification or modification/conversion … and I wouldn’t pay half the inflated price you want for your Elation ‘Kit’ … what a rip-off …
Wasted breath. I’m outta here. My 2c is up.
Enjoy your echo chamber … Alland
Thanks you for your objective feedback
I am not trying to push my own barrow here. I am trying to clarify some misinformation and to present information on this forum showing there are alternative methods of getting around, sold by MANY other sellers who decided to operate within the intent of the law, including eLation.
The ONLY product that has been deemed illegal is one that was using a loop hole that was finally closed. If these scooters were not exploiting a loop hole then why is it that there was only one primary distributor of this type product?
Simple, the rest of the industry stayed within the bounds of due diligence.
I defy anyone to ride a distance of even only 1km on the banned scooter using only the pedals, and then truthfully state that the pedals are intended as the primary source of propulsion.
NO OTHER type electric bike has been made illegal; any other comments in this regard are pot stirring.
Just so others may not be confused by lack of supporting facts from some in regard to ADR, DOTAR and other FACTS.
DOTAR is a federal government department; ADR is a set of design rules.
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/index.aspx
Quoting the website: “The Australian Design Rules (ADRs) are national standards for vehicle safety, anti-theft and emissions. The ADRs are generally performance based and cover issues such as occupant protection, structures, lighting, noise, engine exhaust emissions, braking and a range of miscellaneous items.”
DOTAR
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/index.aspx
“Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government”, which has ADR as part of their responsibility.
Here are relevant Vehicle Categories referenced from “Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule –
Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005 Compilation 3.”
4.2.1. PEDAL CYCLE (AA)
A vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism solely by human power.
4.2.2. POWER-ASSISTED PEDAL CYCLE (AB)
A pedal cycle to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts.
4.2.3. MOPED – 2 Wheels (LA)
A 2-wheeled motor vehicle, not being a power-assisted pedal cycle, with an engine cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 ml and a ‘Maximum Motor Cycle Speed‘ not exceeding 50 km/h; or a 2-wheeled motor vehicle with a power source other than a piston engine and a ‘Maximum Motor Cycle Speed‘ not exceeding 50 km/h.
NOTE: Classes AA and AB are only REFERENCED in ADR for completeness of categories.
Quoting DOTAR; “Motorized scooters or pedal cycles with a maximum power output not greater than 200 watts fall into the AB vehicle category (Pedal assisted cycles) in the National Standards (ADRs) and are not subject to the Australian Design Rules.” ref
So it can be seen that ADR has no place in the discussion of electric bikes.
In regard to the Deborah Matheson case, she was riding a PEDAL assisted vehicle (LA Cat), clearly NOT a Category AB vehicle. The pedals are removable and cannot be used is a practical sense as with a NORMAL pushbike. It the motor is not used on this type of vehicle then it is not rideable.
Conversely a pushbike can been ridden non-stop without a motor and so is a MOTOR assisted vehicle (AB Cat).
The new regulations proposed under the RTA Feb 2008 document DO NOT try to ban electric bikes or force them to be registered. The document is trying to clarify the issues that allow loop holes to exist so that unscrupulous dealers will not be able to use them on the unsuspecting public. They are even trying to increase power to 300W, hardly the actions of a department trying to make electric BIKES illegal.
Finally, if I happen to get sales along the way while providing informative and educational information then it looks like I am as guilty as Deborah.
I import bikes ect, I wrote to fed minister for DOTARS canberra, Lloyd, he said need permission of State member for transport. I wrote to Lucas State minister for transport, he said I need permission from Fed minister, I wrote to Greenies Brown, he said 200 watts great. Talking to polititians is like talking to a pile of bricks, lots of bulk no brains, good luck.
Att: Craig
1. “the importers who have been passing illegal vehicles off as bicycles. At the least, these guys importing the “scooter” type vehicles have failed in their diligence to check this”….how can you say this when the RTA Feb 2008 paper even admits that there were confusion by staff within the RTA departments & law enforcement agency regarding the info about legally ridden on road without licence & rego?
2. “I agree with Alland that being able to ride it like a bike for a reasonable distance is a fair test”…. but this is not law, so you cant use this as an argument….common sense tells people not to use marjuhuana, but still the law doesn’t forbid it’s usage? If the law says NO then NO, if not fair game!
3. “but I bet that eLation has more Australian content then 100% imported Chinese bikes”…..of course imported Chinese products is 100% Chinese (wow, genius)….what’s the percentage of eLation components that are made in Australia?….would it be close to 5%? One thing that is definitely Australian is the parcel box the kit comes in sold at Australia Post office. Aussie friendly and Aussie interest at heart indeed.
4. “$1300….If eLation are charging too much then they wont make sales”…..obviously this is not about the almighty dollar at all.
5. “AllanD is just saying that a local manufacturer is going to give better support for dealing with local issues than one from Taiwan.”…..are you saying all local businesses are more efficient & superior than business with overseas affiliations? Vegemite anyone?
6. Sources for hub bikes sold compared to kits….just check current & past eBay listings.
7. “If you read this, people should be pedalling all of the time and the power assist is auxiliary. I read the transcript of the recent court case where the judge ruled that the power assist was not auxiliary. In my opinion, the case went downhill when the plaintiff admitted that she would only ride without power assistance when the battery was flat”….you should ring Canberra DOTARS and ask if it’s a requirement for AB to be pedalled at all time. Now if the plaintiff had said she uses the pedals to get the bike moving then engage the motor in order to put less work on the motor & battery…then this would be legally primary propulsion?
8. “The logic of requiring a bike to start off using pedals has come from the RTA submission on changing the law. I think that this is to be in keeping with the spirit of “auxiliary” power. In any case, the eLation people are just being prepared should it ever happen”…..meaning as of now, eLation motor can be used independently of pedals and can start without pedalling, therefore according to court ruling, this system is illegal since it’s primary propulsion in fact the motor.
9. “I am sorry but powering a bike with a motor that doesn’t go though any gears is like riding a bike without gears – you don’t have a gear low enough to go up hills and you don’t have a gear high enough to go fast along the flat”…who’s to say that everyone will use their bikes to go uphill? unless the law has changed and it is now a requirement for all bike riders to use hilly roads?????
Att: Allan
10. “I was sent a copy of the RTA proposal and asked for comment (as were other naturally).”….who from scooter type distributors got invited to participate in this “public forum”. The RTA mind was already made up about this matter, this discussion was only to made to look like being fair & open to all interested parties….clearly not!
11. “Now add to that I put a LOT of ‘profit’ back into improving what we are currently stuck with on the market”…..so what if you do, maybe other scooter style distributor diversify their investment and invest in other Australian industries. Does this not make them Aussie friendly? Since when it is only Aussie friendly if you invest in the Aussie electric bike industry?
12. “I think Hub bikes have a place also, but not in hilly terrains with their current designs” again why are you always making this hilly terrain an issue? Not everyone rides uphill.
13. “there was once more horses on the roads than cars” analogy of horses vs cars to electric bikes vs electric bikes!…wow i lost this one.
14. “…..we continue to sell out of stock. Our waiting list currently extends to Sept.” Yes normally when people import there is a lead time for products to be manufactured and shipped in from China.
15. “If these scooters were not exploiting a loop hole then why is it that there was only one primary distributor of this type product?”….have you been living under a rock? there are numerous scooter style ebike distributors, probably one in every state…big or small, they all had to start from the first container order.
16. “I defy anyone to ride a distance of even only 1km on the banned scooter using only the pedals, and then truthfully state that the pedals are intended as the primary source of propulsion”….with the eLation kit attached, are the pedals truly primary? aren’t you just picking and choosing what would be advantageous to your argument
17. Constructive comments?
“I never set out to offer a cheap system or to compete with the rubbishy end of Chinese products”.
“Do you really think you need an electric bike?? As you seem to sit very well on top of your high horse”.
“The document is trying to clarify the issues that allow loop holes to exist so that unscrupulous dealers will not be able to use them on the unsuspecting public”.
…..takes one to know one right?
18. Not for profit?
“you can probably MANUFACTURE such a system for USD115, but that is not what is retails for”…so let’s say your cost was $300USD because of the claimed “high quality”…..retails for AU$1300…..sure you must be working on a non profit mind set.
Att: Trevor
19. “I would challenge mj and outraged to start any type of business and not make any profit,just go to the salvos each week for some food,who pays for everything else?” only Allan is claiming he’s not in it for the “almighty dollar”….no one else is saying this, so the challenge should be directed at him.
What’s with the “horses” in this forum?….why not “ass”?…ebikes with plastic farings or ebikes without?
Trevor,
This is what Allan wrote:
“The reason we are able to do this is that we have focused on where the industry is going and not the almighty dollar. It was widely known for about two years that the motor scooters with “attachable” pedals were using a loop hole. They were sold for profit, not public interest.”
Isn’t this implying all sellers of scooter style ebikes goes for the profit while, he’s doing it all for the good of Aussies and not for profit.
trevor h,
Its good to hear. My dad has been tinkering with his home made e-bike for about a year now. He likes doing this sort of thing and the result is usable. He has a 250 watt motor above the rear wheel connected with a seperate bike chain. The last time I rode it, it pulls nicely up the steeper hills at about 12kph (without pedalling) and along the flat at about 18kph (without pedalling). He has been constantly trying to find the ideal gear and still isn’t satisfied.
I want to get some sort of power assist for my wife and would not have heard about the eLation,etc type of kit if AllanD hadn’t plugged it here. I think that if somebody has a solution to an environmental/legal problem then they should let people know about it.
As I am not a tinkerer like my dad, When I get power assist, I will just go out and buy one that is professionally designed and definitely one that uses the bike gears.
By the way, did you notice that the cyclone kits are not available as a 200watt option? The closest is 180watts or 250watts.
Alland
So now you expand upon your repertoire with pomposity and condescencion.
In any moderated forum your posts would be deleted as they are entirely self serving … you even have the shutzpah to embed your website link touting for business …
How is your latin, Cui Bono ? by your ‘advertorials’ in this forum … ?
Just in case here’s the Wiki reference for you … since you don’t understand (or choose not to ?) ‘Conflict of interest’ or ‘Moral Hazard’ … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono
You can qoute any reference and provide superficial and slanted analysis whilst you carp on about yourself to satisfy your ego, however, the facts of the matter are due to the recent Supreme Court case there are ~10,000 E-Bike owners who are outta luck and a lot of people hurting by an abritrary redefiniton of the relevant NSW Only Law and Regulations … these people already spent thier money in good faith based on the sustained previous advice and guidance of RTA and various others … they don’t have in these current times the luxury of handing over another significant chunk of the hard-earned to the likes of you … hell, you are so generous you’re happy to profit from assisting people confused and desperate, to sell thier E-Bike interstate … yes, you are a true samaritan *barf*
Furthermore, spin it any way you wish, but this ruling and the subsequent actions of RTA and NSW Police mean ANY bicycle with a throttle is now fair game … it’s entirely at the discretion of the plod on the beat and a lucky dip with a Magistrate behind The Bench … ‘Auxiliary’ heh ? ‘Not pedalling’ heh ?
So what’s your contribution Alland ? Other than carping on about yourself for perosnal benefit and slandering others of which you are entirely ignorant ?
You seek to cynically exploit this sad situation for personal profit by hijacking this forum … you are no Aussie, ‘Mate’ … you remind me of the type of ghoul that would pick through the posessions of the dead and wounded on a field of battle and proclaim vociferously you were aiding the ailing … since you claim to have served, then you’ll understand what I mean when I call you out as ‘I’m Alright Jack’, or more bluntly, a J%^& ****.
You wouldn’t want to demo your exhorbitantly priced rebadged Chinese Kit to me M8Y, and try to convince me it’s for the good of Oz and an Aussie company … ‘True Blue’ heh ? even at my age I’d go you.
So, if it’s got plastic fairings it has to be registered, if it hasn’t and it can be percieved to ‘appear’ to look like a pushbike (whatever the hell that is ?) then it ‘may’ be an AB category … what a crock of sh*t !!!
Alland
So your imported Chinese motor has been independently tested and certified as never exceeding 200W through it’s entire duty cycle … within the legal definition of a maximum of 200W ?
What’s the maximum current limit for your Motor Controller ? and at what voltage ?
Been put on the bench and Dyno tested ? Who by ?
Since you love links perhaps you could supply one documenting your independent, Certified Compliance testing for your imported Chinese Motor ? Got a link to performance curve graph re Voltage, Ampage, Watts and RPM from 0 to ? for your imported Chinese motor ?
Do you supply a permanent certified rating, compliance plate, on your imported Chinese motor ?
Or is your imported Chinese motor capable of exceeding 200W in an ordinary duty cycle ? And therefore ‘technically’ illegal ?
Very curious indeed … since you claim a ‘Holy Grail’, a LEGAL solution to everyones Electric Bicycle troubles … it would be most unfortunate to discover otherwise … very curious indeed …
Hey, what do you do with all that Lead Acid you import in your SLA’s … a samaritan philanthropist like you probably sponsors a reclamation facility, yes ?
Sorry to ask specific factual technical questions of you, about your rebadged, imported, Chinese crap, I know how it must detract from your self promotion.
Hello Outraged,
There is nothing that I can say without sounding condescending, but I will try.
I am lucky enough not to have one of the offending bikes, but retailers in NSW have a responsibility to ensure that the things that they sell are “as described”. This means that if they said that your bike was street legal or did not require registration, then it has to be or else you can get your money back. Check with consumer affairs. What is more, this means that if they told you verbally, or advertised that it did not require registration then you have a case. Even more, if you told them that you intend to ride it on the road, then it has to be “fit for purpose” or else you get your money back. Finally, there may even be an implied promise that when buying a “bicycle” from a bicycle shop that it is legal to ride on the road. You need to contact consumer affairs.
This is bad news for bicycle shops because they may not be able to call their suppliers and importers into account. This may not be the best news for you either because your bike was probably really useful.
There was never any loop-hole, the law hasn’t changed. The RTA may have given bad advice, but I can’t believe that nobody noticed the words in the rules like “attached”, “auxilliary” and “built to be propelled by human power”. I really think that somepeople deliberately overlooked these words because they were too inconvenient, you need to be angry with these people.
Despite my ramblings, I think the law should be changed so that these e-bikes become legal. If it goes like a bike, stops like a bike and is about the same size and weight as a bike then it should be treated like a bike. (But I think that 200w is enough-my thoughts on this are well documented above.)
If you have seen consumer affairs then please let me know what they say because other people will be interested.
Back on topic: This topic started in April last year with a promise of law changes within “a few weeks – subject to a ‘final agreement’”. Does anybody know where they are up to?
Here is some input that will not directly answer your question Cragi B but will show it will still not be a “few weeks”.
I was told by another person in industry the following ‘rumour’ which I emaile Howard Glenn on;
“Dear Howard
I hope you may be able to help. I have heard “rumors” that NSW is going to adopt a pedal based, no throttle system for ebikes as of next month.
Any truth in this?
Howard’s Response was;
“Dear Allan – I wish we could move as quickly as rumour!
We’re still analysing the responses to our paper, and haven’t worked out detailed next steps yet- but we will be working in step with other jurisdictions, so don’t expect any rapid surprises.
Howard”
So I suppose there are no surprises; my rumour is that it will not be unrealistic to expect a 3 year period. This is also alluded to in the RTA Feb 08 report. re; finite rego period for ebikes impacted on by change to regulations.
Att: Allan
At no point did you attempt to provide any counter argument to points 1-18. Which part of my points were “contradictory stuff”. So does that mean you cant or you wish not to so that some readers may still be fooled.
Are you kidding me, analogy to “starter motor”? Starter motor is a motor but it cant propel the car, where as pedals can, so i fail to see the comparisons.
Interesting how you admit to motor & battery was made in China. So what’s left of the remaining components on your kit? Since you are using this forum to plug your business….i challenge you to list all the components of the kits and let the readers know where they are made.
No way i would ever buy your over inflated price kits, so thanks for the offer to demo, but sorry i rather you not advertise around my area.
Hey, sellers of scooter style bikes are also helping local Aussies…..where do you think their printed flyers & brochure for their products are made?
Att: Craig
First you blamed the retailers for deceiving consumers, then you said RTA gave “bad advice”, so is it fair to say RTA gave bad advice to retailers who then passed this onto the consumers? As far as retailers know, the RTA told them they could.
If you are so confident that retailer deceived you, why aren’t you putting in a claim to consumer affairs yourself, why wait for others then you will follow?
Alland continues his clarification:
“Now back to trying to provide info or insight.
I will try and put forward a view on how the regulations are read.
For sake of clarity I will paste relevant sections of the regs here again. Read and then go below them for explanation.
4.2.1. PEDAL CYCLE (AA)
A vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism solely by human power.
4.2.2. POWER-ASSISTED PEDAL CYCLE (AB)
A pedal cycle to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts.
Right, 4.2.1 clearly describes a bicycle or some derivative of it. E.g. road, mountain, hybrid, comfort, recumbent, trike, etc. It is clearly DESIGNED to operate by human power without any other form of power EVER being required to allow it to perform its DESIGNED function; transport of a person from A to B within DESIGNED parameters going back to the evolution of the modern bicycle.
So a fair test of whether a vehicle is a bike could be concluded from this definition and PRACTICAL use of the vehicle under this definition. Even if the word ‘cycle’ was substituted with scooter, trike, (hell, even bus), the other word in the title is PEDAL. The vehicle MUST operate by Human pedal power and still meet its DESIGNED purpose. So I guess a pedal bus may not pass this clause 🙂
So now using the standard practice of building a new definition on an existing definition (patents, engineering processes, law, etc) You can read 4.2.2 as is OR substitute the original definition in full, like below.
4.2.2. POWER-ASSISTED PEDAL CYCLE (AB)
A vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism solely by human power, to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts.
The scooters made illegal by law clearly were not DESIGNED to be powered solely by human power. These regulations have been this way for years. It is just some businesses chose to ignore the full regs. It is not about whether they are pedal start, run or stop.
If scooters in question had been designed as a Pedal vehicle why have we not seen as them in the past sold purely as Pedal vehicles. Because they were NOT DESIGNED to be such.
I agree some people have got a bum wrap, but not from regs or RTA. The businesses who decided to put the dollar IN FRONT OF BUSINESS ETHICS.
Just one last thing. My offer for NSW people who had caught to contact me as I may be able to assist was seen by Outraged as; Quote “hell, you are so generous you’re happy to profit from assisting people confused and desperate, to sell their E-Bike interstate …” was a bit insulting.
What my offer is to offer people FREE space on my web site to put there scooters picture and details up for sale. NO COMMISSION, nothing. Just as a service to help them try and get Australia wide access to people looking for electric transport. No Catches, NO COSTS.
Offer still stands for those caught out.”
Good post. Interesting to read the various opinions.
Sounds like the authorities need to make the guidelines and rules a lot clearer.
I fully agree with that andrew.
att. crag b,
Tried to reply to you e few days ago but something went wrong with the site,yes i did notice 180 or 250 watts on that kit,.
You mention your dad,my son races road bikes for a hobby,going to help me install my e#####n kit,thinks it is a great idea for me if it helps keep me on my bike,hopefully all fitted in a week or two,i will let you know how it goes,stay tuned,
Trevor.
I agree Trevor. If power assistance makes a trip practical by bike, or even just a bit easier by bike, then it is a good thing. I will stay tuned for your progress, in particular, it would be good to get a first-hand opinion of whether 200w is enough power with a e#####n kit.
Craig
Craig.
What town you in. Might be able to help with demo of the “e word”
Obviously Allan cant come up with any counter arguments.
Actually I decided not to encourage you two idiots. The final straw was your clown mate making stupid statments about “my SLA batteries”. Well, doh, I never have and never would use SLA, I use LiFEPO4 batteries.
You have been a clown going on about how expensive my prodcut is.
Well put up or shutup. Find a commercial product of same spec and quality. If it is lower in price (and provable) I will reduce price to match.
Time you two came out of the closet and state who and what your motives are. You accuse me of “hiding” HA.
If nothing else your childish antics brought my product more exposure than I ever wnated. I have been rattled with email asking what those “..two ratbags…” were trying to prove.
Att: Allan
Who am i?
I’m just one of the countless number of ebike (scooter style) owners who are caught up in this NSW court ruling. I stumbled across this forum thinking this could be usefull. Unbeknownst, all i read was you bagging the scooter style bikes for your purpose of promoting your own product (which are also clearly illegal according to the ruling of primary power).
By the way since when did i ever say anything about SLA…i just referred to batteries…get your facts straight!
Here we go again….you claim to justify your ridiculous price by saying your products are better quality than every body else’s. Can you prove it? Even if i show the people here other similar kits to yours but much more fairly priced, you would just say theirs are lower quality….although i would not be surprised if they all come out of the same factory in China.
Isn’t exposure is what you want? As you are so openly promoting your own product at the expense of others who bought scooter style bikes, so it is only fair that i expose the other side of the argument.
Yes i’m a child….if you are as experienced & as good as you claim, but cannot rationalise or win an argument against a child, then i guess you are an exceptional intellect….DUUUUHHHHH!….i wont argue with that!
If you can dish it out, you can take it!
Another topic that is starting to arise is the terminolgy used to classify and rate an electric motor. The term maximum is used by some states and its use as such in electric motors creates confusion. For example, some motors can draw 6 times rated current on startup. So for a Rated 200W motor this may mean an inrush of up to 50A. This means maximum power could be seen as 1200W, clearly not the case.
To date this has not been an issue, however, with a lot of misquoting and mis infromation this may become an issue at a latter date, if not also addressed.
I am sure the RTA are aware of this and it will also be addressed but care still needs to be taken to ensure it does not become the “issue of the future”.
mj..
If you have been dudded with one of those scooters,why take it out on someone who has nothing to do with it.
alland has obviously come up with a kit that appeals to e bikers.and has been designed with the laws relating to e bikes in australia. i believe the retail price reasonable,
compare it to a hub kit from a large retailer,$1100 for a hub and a wheel of un known quality with a throttle and SLA batts $1800 with lithium,this kit must obviously be %100 australian made,give me a break…
Trevor
The reason i’m objecting to Allan is that he is degrading the scooter style bike (which i owe one) to promote his own product. All these criticism of the scooter style bikes are obviously contrived to ramp up interest for just your average run at the mill product…..the only true difference is that these kits are twice the price as those coming out of the same Chinese factory but sold by a different importer.
I never say other kits are Australian made, only Allan is claiming that his kits are high quality & made in Australia. I just question him on the legitimacy of his claims….so far he is avoiding the challenge of listing all the components of this kit and where they are made….i would not be surprised if only 5% (and i’m being super generous here) of this kit is actually made in Australia.
You should actually read what i post before commenting.
Just curious, once you received the kit & got it all installed…..would you be postings bad feedbacks if it turned out to be disappointing since your expectation of this kit is so high? But dont worry i’m sure Allan will do everything to keep you “from posting the bad feedbacks”…..sorry i was ment to write “happy”.
I will be giving an honest opinion,
Alland has no say about what i post
MJ
I suggest you go back and read ALL posts, including your own, before accusing me and others of not reading.
Your latest misread “By the way since when did i ever say anything about SLA…i just referred to batteries…get your facts straight!”. Suggest you go read what I actually said.
How have I degraded the scooter style bike? I have stated they are heavy monsters and now illegal. Sorry my opinion and also fact. I have also criticised the sellers of these because there legality has ALSWAYS been a border line issue, but they chose to take a chance with YOUR money on which way the ruling may fall if/when it did.
You have closed your eyes because of your anger.
If you want to blame someone blame the dear lady who forced the issue by bringing it to court. Prior to that there was at least an unsteady Status Quo.
I would have gladly answered your questions if they were genuine and not just to satify your tantrums. I have actually been asked these questions since, (Trevorh for example) by people off line and I have told them. I am not hiding anything. I came on this forum using my name, and what I can offer by way of information and product.
Did your precious saleman offer to provide free space to try and sell your prodcut for FREE on a site aimed at ebike sales??? I am not the bad guy here, I stepped in with information and an alternative solution.
Gee imagine if everyone reacted the same way as you when Beta recorders were defeated by VHS? The writing was on the wall for ages but people still brought them because of SALEMAN”S ASSURANCES……
So put the blame back were it belongs.
I did not make the law or rule of it.
Att: Allan
Oh my bad i misread….”your clown mate” about SLA issue. I’m sorry.
Are you sure you are not degrading scooter style bikes?
Then how do you explain:
“I never set out to offer a cheap system or to compete with the rubbishy end of Chinese products”.
“Finally, if I happen to get sales along the way while providing informative and educational information then it looks like I am as guilty as Deborah.”
You are still avoiding the “listing of components & country of manufacturer”. Why is that?
I’m not blaming the law or its ruling….i just find it low to use this public forum/situation and exploit it for you own benefit, while concealing the true motive by saying you are just here to offer help and doing good for Aussie. YEAH RIGHT!
QUOTE from MJ “…while concealing the true motive…”
Ok, maybe I should have signed in as JM with the following;
“If you want to see a system that is still legal and performs well you should have a look at this business “name”, it looks good.
Then RageOut could have come online with something like;
“Yeah it is brilliant. I have had one for about 6 months and it can go anywhere. Plus the guy doing it is generous with time and information. Really worth a look at.”
Come on, please grow up. I am not exploting anything or anyone. For that type of service I suggest you return to the salesperson you purchased your scooter from; if they are still there!!!!
With regard to rest, please read early posts
AllanD,
I am from Wollongong, but sadly we have other financial priorities and so I can’t see me getting a eLation any time soon.
As for MJ, I haven’t responded to anything that he has written since it became clear that he is only arguing for the sake of arguing. Your post about fire-starting is on the mark. He is making the most tenuous and counter-intuitive reasoning to come up with the most bizarre claims. He is clearly not reading the posts and ignoring both the literal text and the obvious intention of the posts. As I believe that it is obvious to any sensible third-person that his posts are insubstantial, there is no need to respond. I am sorry about the scooter situation that he is in but there is little that I can do but advise him to deal with his retailer.
Craig
Craig & Allan
You wont respond because you cant respond….dont give stupid excuse about “counter-intuitive” & “insubstantial” BS. What a joke….getting done by a child.
Hi Craig
Thanks for advice. I will now gladly follow it knowing that someone else also sees through the sadness of the situation. I was starting to wonder if I was on some web equivalent of Candid Camera.
Cheers 🙂
Smile Allen, you never know when you will end up on you-tube! 🙂
This has got way off topic! Is there no moderator here?
After just reading through the entire post I can only conclude:
Allend is offering information, on an industry he is clearly well versed on. His product is possibly overpriced (certainly out of my price range), but that’s for the customer to decide, and the competition to capitalise on. I didn’t personally find this forum was hijacked till it got petty…
Those who have been dup’d by unscrupulous vendors would be well advised to perhaps listen to advice on here before wasting your money again, And, go back to the shop and get your money back!
I agree with you MJ on the point that the legislation is crap, and on a flat surface your bike does just fine. They should be allowed to stay, but I think you’re going to find yourself disappointed. You might be responsible on it, but I’d hate to be walking around a neighbourhood with my little 4 y/o daughter full of 14 y/o boys riding the things through ‘shared roads’ at 30km+. I’m guessing you’re not an engineer/businessman trying to get something that works well, and legal, to market – so probably care less for the variation in models. The fact is, many of us do live on hills, do not want the aggravation with the authorities, and want an electric bike!
I’m glad I did my research (how I actually came across this site) before hand so I at least know my risks. I’m also thankful to see some products listed that I can choose from – even if it does to others look like blatant advertising.
I for one just want to see sensible legislation (fast) – if Alland can argue the case (on our behalf) for certain things to stay (throttle), power to be increased and so on then I’m sure that can only benefit the end-users, and potentially offer more competition into the market and bring down the price.
Alland – you have to realise that your comments on asking your boss for money without justification etc. are right but unhelpful. I’ve written to countless MP’s on the issue and guess what, I don’t even get acknowledgment on my submission.
hello Shayne.
I agree with most of what you say,i am happy with what i am paying,i could source all the bits and pieces with lifepo4 batts,might save myself a couple of hundred, on the surface,then i have to have the ability and the time to put it all together,no thanks.
I to stumbled onto this site and many others whilst researching e bike kits,i read what others have to say but rarely post anything,however when i saw alland being needlessly attacked i felt i had to respond.
Allan was simply explaining to readers the current laws relating to ebike power and how he designed his system to make the best of the available power limit,his remarks were completly distorted by two posters. i believe alland and others like him will have a lot of input into the ongoing discussions about ebike power limits,to our benefit as well.
I don’t believe we need 200 kws or we would buy a motorbike/scooter.
To me an ebike is a common bicycle with some elec “assistance” when we need it,hills etc or maybe on the flat when someone wants to commute to work a little faster with less sweat.
Also i think this is a good forum,no logging in and out,passwords etc ,I would like to see a category,general ebike discussion,where we could talk about our bikes and kits,the pros and cons and our ideas,i think it would be good for us as well as the retailers.
my 2cents worth.
I too would like to see this get more positive from here, thanks to to others for input. My final words on this would be that it is a sad reflection that today we feel everyone is “in it” for the money. Yes I do want to make some money, but I want it to live and continue my designs. I also want to have “enough left” to allow me to assist where I can (and some fun). I have donated systems to students for projects and my time to speak to people wanting more info about the market as a whole.
If it was about the money I would still be contracting as a engineer.
Right, back to business.
Shayne you make a very valid point when you allude to the fear of your daughter being hit by a scooter, or any vehicle for that matter (however we will remain focused on ebikes AS A WHOLE).
I have so many people ask one question when they are looking at going over 200W; “Can you tell the difference by looking at it”?
The answer is “no, not really”, but then I go onto explain the real concern to them.
Even if you fool the cops and dont get caught, what happens if you are involved in an accident or altercation? That is where things get horrible.
During any investigation it will most likely be discovered that your ebike is over 200W and therefore illegal. So criminal charges of rider unregistered, riding uninsured, etc.
BUT, what about the civil issues also. If you are sued by the other party you are gone, you have no leg to stand on. THAT IS THE MORE IMPORTANT POINT, not whether you can fool the cops (gee, that is easy 🙂 )
After explaining this I would say about 1/3 accept the 200W system, the rest have been warned and need to make their own decision. I can only advise, the final use is their responsibilty.
A serious aside from Allan’s post is about insurance. The good news is that most, if not all, “House and Contents” insurance policies has a personal liability feature that covers you if you or your kids run a Mercedes off the road on a non-power assisted bike. The insurance policy will cover you for the $150,0000 car and the $12,000,000 for the driver who is now in a wheelchair (fortunately I am not speaking from personal experience 🙂 ).
The bad news is that most of the policies that I have looked at do not cover you, if you or your kids are on a power assisted bike (QBE has a policy that does). And I have never seen one that will cover you or your kids on an illegal power assisted bike. It is a good idea to read the wording of your Home and Contents insurance policy.
Something to think about.
What are they going to do about gravity powered bikes ?.I rode a bike (no motors petrol or electric) down a hill (not using the pedals and was doing 70 km/h .I am sure that the power was more than 200 watts
and what are they going to do about lycra powered bikes ,I was driving behind some guys in lycra on bikes recently and they were doing 60 km/h .that lycra’s gotta have more than 200 watts of power
I have one of those gravity powered bikes. The problem is that you have to charge it up by pedalling up the hill first.
But that auxilliary gravity power is very good at helping me get down those hills.
HI Lach
So what is a gravity powered lycra bike capable of. Think suggested limited is stupid as it is easy for fit people to pass it. IF, any speed limit was going to be proposed then 40kph, as in scholl zone seems sensible. Maybe it should then also be applied to ALL cyclist
I just sent last four comments of to Howard Glenn at RTA. Let him see what logically people are thinking AND SAYING
Seriously, if someone is travelling at 60-70kph, ie motor vehicle speeds, then you want to be sure that they are competant and that their vehicle is road worthy. Hence registration and licensing. But where do you draw the line? The line is currently drawn at 200watt power assisted bicycles.
Have just read all the stuff on the website. I too found it by accident – I have a slightly different perspective as I live in Qld and use a electric trike to deliver pamphletts. The area I deliver the pamphletts often does not have footpaths & I have found many motorist do not want share the road with electric bikes if there is no bike lane markings and the road is narrow. When delivering pamphletts (by law in Qld we have to put them in letterboxes not on driveways), I found when riding on grass 200w does not cut it even on a slight slope. Its worst when its been raining – then I have to use the road & take my chance. I am not an old lady but still ride a trike & I would like to see a realistic option to both cars & motor bikes. Also someone told me the Qld govt may be looking at putting a 16 km speed limit on electric bike – does anyone know if this is true?
Hi Linda
I will be damned if I want to start another flame war….but Try the eLation. Live in Runcorn and happy to demo ans I KNOW how much better it is. Gee, depending on what you own I will consider trade in as I am looking for cheap hub to show people side by side demo. I KNOW we will cricify hub motor. I NKOW IT.
yes and seriously currently there is no way of making sure the rider and the bike are roadworthy and with gravity as the power source .Again my question is are they going to ban gravity or just have the hill police out there .
IMO all arguments regarding motor power ,smoter power/lycra power all come down to this .WHAT WILL THEY DO ABOUT GRAVITY POWERED BIKES capable of speeds of 60 km/h plus with a 6 year old at the helm?,HM????? THESE GUYS ARE NOT SERIOUS ABOUT SAFETY <THERE IS ANOTHER AGENDA AND IT CAN BE VERY EASILY READ BETWEEN THE LINES and any argument about 200 watts vs 300 smwatts vs my hub vs your pub is just plain frikken STOOOOPID!!
This whole argument is a joke .They allow peanuts with poor driving records drive cars with a thousand times power than an electric bike .The car ads always brag (now imagine rediculous low gravelly voice here ) “our new smegma has 230 kilowatts of power” that is useful for what I ask ? besides killing and maiming people .The fastest speed a car is allowed to go in NSW is 110 kmh yet you can drive a car that can go at least twice that speed and the git behind the wheel is never trained to drive it that fast(until he/she tries it one night in crap conditions and takes out poor old ma and pa on the way to woolies in their torana at the crossroad) .
dumb dumb dumb
(Now theres my 2 cents and rant for the day i’m off to bed ) ooohhh I feel sooo much better now 🙂
Hello Linda,
If anybody needs more power or a smarter solution then it is you. I have seen one of these trikes in a bike shop and it looks just the thing for delivering stuff (or doing the shopping). If it is like the one that I saw then it has a big basket on the back and it looks like you can reach around and grab stuff without worrying about falling over.
The trike that I saw did look heavy, and pushing two (let alone three) wheels through soft ground is not easy (plus cargo). I think that you are getting close to the limit of what is called a “bicycle” and should expect performance to be less than spectacular.
Having said that, the motor in your trike will develop 200watts at one particular speed and will generate less at other speeds. Lets say that it generates 200watts at 30 kph. If you are travelling at 10 kph through grass then your motor will be producing between 60 and 120 watts (depending on the type of electric motor). I agree, that this is hopeless.
If you had a kit like the eLation, then you just change gears and suddenly you are back up to 200watts. This is a big difference.
well said craig.
Hi All
I wrote another email to RTA other day continuing to stress concern on application od speed limit.
Here is repsonse; I hope most will see a positive vain to this.
“Allan, you’re reading in too much to what I wrote. But email discussions are like that. Anyway, we’re planning to kick off a national technical standards review, so there’ll be plenty of opportunity to look at international experience and local expert opinion. Will keep you posted…”
Hello Lachlan,
You have some good points. Anybody can get in a car and drive at insane speeds, where-ever they want and for as far as they want. This is why there is licensing so that people know what is safe and so that people can be stopped from driving if they do not drive safely.
Bicycles riders, on the other hand, do not need to be licensed. Instead, there are natural limitations on how foolish we can be. I agree that anybody can get up to 60kph down a steep enough hill, but these hills aren’t all that common, and most of us spend 95% of our time riding at much much slower speeds. I also agree that we should be sure that lycra powered cyclists at 60kph are responsible and competant. The reality is that you really need to be an adult to cruise at this speed and it takes a long time and a lot of kilometers on the bike to get this level of bike fitness. It is much easier to get a drivers license than to get this fit.
The past 147 years of history has shown that bicycles are relatively safe and do not need licensing. The past 100 years of history has shown that cars are much more dangerous and drivers do need to be licensed.
My argument is that increasing the power of power-assisted bicycles will remove these natural limitations. Bicycles will be able to travel much faster, all of the time, and be able to be ridden fast by people without any bike skill or experience.
My view is that we shouldn’t be trying to raise the power limit of power-assisted bikes. We should be trying to change the law so that these currently-illegal scooter type bikes can be ridden legally.
Hi Craig
It is really a catch 22 as most of those scooters type are very heavy and really do need more power to be practical to a general market.
There is still also the issue or main vs axillary. I think a SENSIBLE combination of both is needed.
I think 500W with 40kph assist cutout is realistic, still safe and will cover a broader range of applications and terrains.
Hello Allan,
While I think that these scooter type bikes should be legal, I also think that there should be some sort of limit on how big and heavy a “bicycle” can be before it it no longer a “bicycle”. At some point they will need better brakes, they will also do more harm when they hit people and they should be registered. Currently the power limit is really the only limit on how big and heavy a bike can be. If you allow the power to go up based on the mass of the bike then you need some other limit on how big and heavy a “bicycle” can be.
Right now, main vs auxilliary is very important – it shouldn’t be. I think that this clause was put into the law so that it didn’t allow all sorts of powered vehicles to be driven without registration. If a bike is running solely on its electric motor then it can only be slower than one that has both electric and human power. There needs to be a new definition that allows things that have the same characteristics as a bike to be treated like a bike.
The proposal to just increase the power assistance of bicycles is a little ironic with the current legislation requiring that it be “auxilliary”. I think that it would be difficult to argue that the 500watt motor is “auxilliary” to the 200watt human.
The idea of speed limiting power assistance may be a good one and it may be part of the best solution. I see some problems with the limits at 500w and 40kph. The first is that 500w will propell a bike along at 40kph almost all of the time, up almost any hill and into just about any wind. Nobody rides a bike like this all of the time.
Braking on a bike is not like braking in a car or a motor bike. If I look at my bike, most of my mass sits about 1m above the ground and 60cm behind where the front wheel touches the ground. This geometry limits my maximum deceleration to about 0.6g before I go rolling over the handlebars. The last time I had my car rego checked, it could decelerate at over 1.1g. What is a safe speed in a car is not necessarily a safe speed on a bike.
The second problem is that 500w plus rider (= 700w) power is way more than anybody needs to ride a bicycle. The guys over in France right now in that bike race are averaging about 230watts of power and 45kph. (see: http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/07/68310). If 230w is enough to climb the Pyrenees in a race against the fastest cyclists in the world, why isn’t 200w + rider enough to get up the hills around Sydney?
A third issue is that bicycles do not need registration or a license. This means that anybody can ride them, including children. Currently fatigue has an important role in slowing people down and it means that you don’t get many kids screaming up the footpath around shops at 40kph. What is more, power assisted bikes are going to get cheaper as the price of the litium batteries comes down. Soon they will be so cheap that kids will be getting them as Christmas presents. They will be everywhere – do you want to be hit by a kid as you step out of a shop at 20kph or 40kph.
There is an issue that shouldn’t be an issue, but it is. People – motorists and pedestrians just do not expect bicycles to be going fast. I commute five days a week and travel at about 30kph, not especially fast, but I have been hit twice by cars and ran down one pedestrian – all because I was going faster than they expected me to. The first car overtook me then pulled off left and braked faster then I could brake – a gentle bump, no harm done. The second one came along side of me, must have forgotten that I was there and then ran me into a traffic island – skin off everywhere. The pedestrian was crossing the road in heavy traffic, looked right at me and then stepped out in front of me – I broke my nose. Still, every few days I have a near miss as someone sees me, misjudges my speed and then pulls out or steps out.
My last problem is that accidents at 40kph are a lot more serious then accidents at normal bike speeds. There are two members of the local bike club not riding at the moment because of broken bones.
Thanks Allan for the opportunity to blurt out my views in full instead of the dribs and drabs that I have been doing so far. (except for my criticisms of the people who ignored the inconvenient words in the legislation and imported the scooters)
Not going to by into main vs aux again 🙂
Not sure where you got the speed for rider outputing 230W. You may like to look at http://www.elationebikes.com.au/man_vs_machine.htm for some more insight.
I have rode on 500W elation, purley for testing of course 🙂 You must remember that at these speeds a hell of a lot more power is used over coming wind resistance, so 500W will only propel you along at around 41kph on flat. Also you need to consider that the average rider is not going to be slicked down and crouching like the pros, so greater wind profile.
I have cycling software package that allows for lots of calcs. Unfortunately it does not run on Vista, which I now run on all my computers. I am currently setting up acomputer in workshop on XP. I will be abl,e to run this software along with my DSO and home made dyno so I am going to be able to do better testing.
Ithik the thing I am trying to highlght with more power is that it needs to accomodate the less fit, the old, the injured, the asmatic, etc so that they feel secure neough to be able to rely on the bike to get them around feeling secure in the knowlegde that can go most places AND RETURN.
If we want to make the powere bicykce a realistic, viable option for commuting then I feel we need to set realistic parameters.
Oh, Ok, I will make a small comment on mains vs aux. Where is it defined that aux should be less than mains?? FOr example, an aux power source has the same capacity as the mains in power generation 🙂
No we wont discuss auxiliary vs main again (ever, ever, ever :)). The word can be interpretted in lots of different ways and I think that the law should be changed to remove it (especially for the old, injured, asthmatic etc).
Sadly, I haven’t been able to find any information on speed vs power for riding mountain bikes on the road. Your graph at zero slope crosses the 200w mark at about 34kph (500w is off the scale). The other sources I found are for aerodynamic riders and, having both a road and a mountain bike, I know that there is a big difference between the two.
I can see the vision of responsible, environmentally friendly and law-abiding people leaving the car at home and saving lots of money by commuting to work and travelling to the shops by bike and power-assisted bike.
The big question is how much should be allowed. I contend that 200watts is enough. There are pictures on your web site showing an eLation bike going up hills of 20%. There are not that many roads around that steep.
I contend that 40kph is too fast for a six year old or even a twelve year old to get around the local streets. Do we really want to but the power of two and a half adults in the hands of children. If it were allowed, then it will happen.
(As I think that you know, electric motors have greater torque at lower speeds so that they just slow down when they come to a hill. They don’t labour and stall like petrol motors (don’t get me started on petrol motors :)).)
Craig, go to my website and contact me via email. To your benefit, I have a package to email.
Hi Craig
Couple of point to consider. You must rememebr that hub motors will always exist as they do serve a market. However for the time being at least there is no way that a 200W hub will do that. That should make me happy, but it is about ALL options being feasable. Also keep in mind that a 200W motor will work hard to do steep, LONG hills. I know I say 500W, I suppose I propose that because I believe a speed limter is also going to be required, so might as well have power to do hills better. If they dropped the limiter then I would think 300W to be great.
With reguards to kids, do not quote me, but I am sure I read that powere bikes are only legal for 14years and over. If it is not then maybe it should be.
Can anyone else shed light on age in different states?
Hi allan,
As far as i can see, in victoria there seems to be no age limit,
Also motor scooters [elec] must be 200 watts or less and have a max speed of 10 kmh, http://www.vicroads.gov.au.
Hi Trevor,
You seem to be confusing the regulations re ‘Electric Scooters’ with Electric Bicycles or Electric Bicycles in what people collouqially refer to as scooters … Electric Bicycles Company Gia Carlo’s http://www.electricbicycle.com.au/giacarlo.html … which are power-assisted bicycles in Vic, not ‘Electric Scooters’, no 10Kmh speed limit, etc … 🙂
From Vicroads:
Motorised wheelchairs & motor scooters & similar vehicles (for the disabled).
The speed of these vehicles is limited to no more than 10 km/h and as they are used for the conveyance of disabled people it is not defined as a motor vehicle.
They’re not referring to legal Electric Bicycles in a ‘Scooter’ styling …
Hi FT, nice to see a new face 🙂
You are on the money there. Trev just shows the level of confusion. The scooter you referred to with 10kph restriction is the more tradition Scooter known for powering around the old or infirmed. They can have motors above 200W but are strictly limited to 10kph. As can be appreciated they need to go ANYWHERE to ensure reliable transport for the rider. They tend to be very heavy, very high torque beasts BUT limited to 10kph, unless you wish to register.
Vicroads
Hi ft .
according to the vicroads site 10kph limit applies to elec scooters as well as wheelchairs for the disabled.
like all regulations ,they are sometimes dificult to interpret.
The interpretation seems to be a real problem. VicRoads has a category of “Unusual vehicles”.
It is interesting the confusion created by terminology and definitions. The problem however can sometimes be made less confusing if regulations are read as a WHOLE FIRST then simplified to the focal point in question. But hen again, maybe not. Refer to example below.
Referring to Vic Roads site, below are extracts to highlight speed limit issue:
“Motorised scooter
An electric powered scooter can be used on footpaths and on public roads provided the scooter has an ungoverned power under 200 watts and a maximum speed of 10 km/h.”
“Bicycle
A bicycle may have either an electric or petrol powered motor attached provided that the motor’s maximum power does not exceed 200 watts.”
NOTE: See that under bicycle (as opposed to scooter) there is no specified speed limit.
So that ‘seems’ clear cut. Now lets highlight the confusion relating to the age issue.
According to Motor Scooter defintion:
“An electric powered scooter cain be used on footpaths and on public roads provided…”
BUT WAIT, THERE IS MORE:
“Children under 12
No one including children under 12 years of age can ride a motorised scooter on public roads, naturestrips, footpaths and other road related areas.”
CONFUSED AGAIN…..:)
Hi Trevor,
Here is a link to what the Vic restrictions refer to as an ‘Electric Scooter’:
http://www.extremetoys.com.au/onlinestore/index.php?cPath=48&osCsid=82a7dc82885d2ebea1b338c1342edfdd
As you can see, Electric Scooters are a different animal entirely … they are Not Electric Bicycles, such as a Gia Carlo, regardless of people describing/misnaming them as such 😉
Gia Carlo’s and similar Electric Bicycles, that are 200W or less in Vic are not restricted to 10Kmh, or the other restrictions specific to the above ‘Electric Scooters’ …
Cheers,
Hi ft
Yes i see the type of scooters you are referring too.
I was calling the Gia carlo type vehicles, scooters, probably because they look like motor scooters.
Not sure if the law in vic brings these type of vehicles and the common bicycle with elec assist under the same umbrella.
However to answer a previous post by allan regarding age,
there seems to be no age limit to riding elec bikes in vic.
Think i will stick to commenting on the common bike with elec assist, this scooter thing is getting to complex.
Re age,
Seems Electric Bicycles are limited to 16 or older when the ‘motor’ is engaged … hard to find specific references for each state … 🙁
Here’s what I thought was a really well written ‘facts’ page from DPI in WA 🙂 :
http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/cycling/14860.asp
Also thought I found a 16 year limit when ‘engaged’ in QLD and Vic … but can’t fing the ‘net link now … will try to dig it up again later …
Cheers,
Hi FT.
Interesting site, just about describes what assist pedalling is all about.
From my research, I think WA is about the only state which has an age limit, 16.
Trevor.
However i could be wrong.
Each state seems to have a jumble of laws all over the place.
FT.
That dpi link you provided.
It has lots of interesting bicycle tips and reading.
Cheers trev.
Alland – since you are getting notified of progress on the legislative issues, why not setup a yahoo mail group or something where progress can be posted? I just purchased a bike with a 200w motor (but have not yet tried it). I suspect it will still require an amount of human effort up the hills and would probably upgrade at a later date if it is allowed.
Hi Shayne
Sorry been focused on other items for short time.
I think that the info is getting out just as easy here. People would need to know about mail group the same as the need to know about here.
I feel this is going to be one of those subjects that with be covered in fog for a bit to come yet, NO MATTER what forum is used to get bits and pieces out there.
With regard to 200W motor and hills comment, I think you need to remember that the purpose of these products is to assist the rider, not take the total load. There in lies the expectatitons of people and their reading of the regs also.
Cheers
Allan
Hello all. I’ve just spent the last hour or so reading all the posts here. I am amazed we can’t all get together and have an E-Bike-athon/rally at a venue or venues that will, or likely to, have more impact than sitting on our whining butts posting repetitive what-ifs etc.
On a different note, My friend is 6’8″ tall and weighs 135kg. I think that the only thing that would move on a 200w ebike, with him on it, would be the shape of the wheels.
As we all know, going green/er is always blocked, partially or in full, by either politicians, oil companies, car manufacturers or other large profit organisations, or all the above in cahoots.
Legislation is designed to complicate the simple things. The post by Mike Clahsen spells this out much better than I could ever do. AND I agree with almost all of that post.
Now, Lets get a rally going in you major area. Ride to Victory.
Does anyone actually own an elation and like to comment on their experience?
I live in a hilly area and have about 20km journey to work. After the first 5 km it becomes pretty flat. Peddling it takes me about an hour. I’d love to know how much of a time and performance boost other people got after installing an elation 200W kit.
Much appreciated,
Kev
Hi Kev,
Fitted an elation kit a few weeks ago, i wanted to give it a good try out before commenting here but due to time constraints and the lousy weather here, i’ve only done about 30 klms.
Firstly mine is a 300 watter [i live in the bush and can ride off road] i ride for recreation and to try and keep a bit fit,I don’t intend to commute to work, its 100 ks each way.[would need to take a survival kit with me]
My bike is a 24 spd mtb, riding up a particular steep hill normally requires gear 12 unassisted if i give it about half throttle it takes off, leaving me pedalling thin air, i can then go up about two gears with same pedalling as on the flat
with a subsequent increase in speed.
I believe 200 watts is enough,300 is ideal,but with this system you must use the gears properly, this is why it is designed this way,powering the crank, if you leave it in a high gear it will grind to a halt on a hill just like a low powered hub motor.or like a car or a truck for that matter.
I find the power on mine amazing.
As for range, there is so many variables, you would probably make your 20 ks if you ride like a usual bike and use the power just enough to take the strain off your legs, you would need to take your charger to work, securely wrapped, its not very heavy,.With experience you will soon work out how far it will travel on a charge.
Few little hiccups with fitting, had to get a new bb cartrige with 119mm spindle, 50 bucks for that and the fitting of new cranks and derailluer adjust at the local bike shop, had to file a few mm off battery bracket posts with half round file,to get them to fit around my diagonal tube.
To be fair i never expected to get a kit of any type to fit exactly on any bike without minor mods,
Remember when riding with this type of system, important to use the gears correctly,dont let the motor sound like it is straining,just change down.
Just as a matter of interest, my road bike racing son got my mtb up to 62 kph, thats as fast as it goes due to mtb gearing.
Hope this has been some help to you kev.
Trevor h.
Hill and wind issues are certainly not minor. Tassie riders live in the most mountainous area of the world plus often cop strong winds. The puny Aust. 200 W limit is disgraceful, especially if generally flat EU chose 250 W.
NZ sounds fair at 300W. BTW why nil mentions of lamp load for night use of IC engine assisted bicycles, shows the legislators mainly thinking of flat Earth in daytime? Anyway for an elecric motor assist I feel a shunt wound DC motor is best if over 300 W shaft power is legally permitted, because it helps stop revs from soaring, obviously giving more torque by more current.
Momentum in a collision was the main factor in adopting 200 W to say keep level road speed with nil breeze say under about 40 kph.
For over 10 years I’ve shopped by Raleigh ‘Coaster’ foldup pushbike but desire to add a LiPo brushless motor kit of 350 W. This is illegal so I will likely buy an ex postie 110 cc Honda.
Mainland politicians and their bureaucrats don’t care re their disabled cyclists nor the gales & steep hills of Tasmania.
If they cared re cycle deaths and crashes they would establish better wet weather braking and tyre standards for road going bicycles. I lengthened 50% [by welding] the actuating arm on my Raleigh at front and rear to give more pad pressure, yet still desire a motorcycle type braking response to better avoid very low speed collision such as when descending a slope. I do not encourage folk to ride a bicyle due to this common inability of many bicycles to halt adequately.
A contribution to the discussion received via email:
I had a 180W E bike with hub motor, closely resembling a petrol motor scooter. I had an engineering shop spend several hours designing & machining up a new main sprocket base to get 2 front gears for the detachable pedals to try and get some decent range out of it, but it was no use. 10km and the batteries were flat, even after being replaced with better new ones. I was 120KG, and live in a flat area. I would try to carry 25-30KG of shopping. The machine wouldn’t do the job. It did nothing I needed. I couldn’t buy a sidecar for
it, powered or not. An idealist bought it from me with the new batteries ($160- AFAIR), and I was gladly rid of it, at great financial loss.
What I want is a modest & low speed, affordable short & medium range transporter for my body mass and a practical cargo capacity for shopping. It has to work out cheaper and better than buses, or owning a motor scooter (or car) and rego. Mopeds are impractical and appear dangerous by design. I
often regret the still exorbitant prices being charged for the current Piaggio 3 wheel commercials, like the PMG Mailsters which we used to see in the 60’s. I had one of them too,when it was too old/worn to be of use. They’re still made, but no-one here can afford them, or they’re illegal. For very little more, you can get something more practical from the used car/m’cycle market, which too many keep forgetting.
Customers can’t live on arty-farty ideals, they have to be affordable & practical too.
I propose that any practical vehicle say, <750W and <25kph max, be allowed access to gazetted suburban roads, not freeways, and be given the same costs as off road licensing. IE <$10-PA for a rego plate, without 3rd party insurance AND it and operator be be demonstrably capable of stopping & turning adequately, having at least a working knowledge of the road rules, with working lights, mirrors and audible warning device. An age limit of 15yrs minimum could be considered. Drug & alcohol free driving essential. Perhaps a max GCM could be considered also. Let's make transporting people AFFORDABLE, not a gold mine for the greedy, or a dead loss for the govt. And let's make it HERE, in each State, to keep the costs of transporting it down, and provide employment for our people, and independence from remote sources of supply, which can fail. We already produce most of the necessary raw materials, why should we pay someone else to refine them and assemble it for us? We have the mental capacity to design it for our local conditions, and the people to build it. All we need is enough people to buy it, and that's hopefully a daily growing number. Manxman, Perth WA
I have tested both the hub and chain driven systems. I know the hub lacks power but it does feel alot smoother to ride and coast along on. Just need more power to make it practical.
Fascinating site this, have read all these posts tonight as I have been looking at buying an electric bicycle for some time. I live in country Vic. Pretty flat where I live but I want something that will commute comfortably on the flat at at least 30 kph so I can arrive in reasonable time frame and I don’t want to arrive at work all sweaty through having to peddle too hard. But I am happy to peddle more on the way home for exercise.( 8km each way). I see the arguments more clearly after the useful posts. There has to be a balance between power and safety. Seems like the ideal is to allow a higher power motor but have a mandatory motor cut out above 30 kph or so. I think I will wait and see a bit longer before I decide what to buy.
Transport SA has recently created a fact sheet on power assisted bicycles:
1135_power_assisted_bicycle.pdf
It may be of help to those of us in SA.
Kev
Fitted elation kit 9 months ago. Took a day to fit. Another couple of days to test and adjust to get it working well. One part needed replacing. Alan posted it quickly. Kit is a bit louder than I expected. The high torque shredded my bearings, but I reckon that was because I was applying power as I changed gears (my bad). It moves through the gears really quickly so unless I do alternate gear changes and power boosts I’m not sure how to get around shredding another set of bearings. I have another hub bike that I use for transit to work, but I still use the elation bike for fun. If you are going to try fitting a kit then it’s actually a pretty good one.
Installation documentation could be greatly improved. Overall a 7 out of 10 experience.
The limit on power is all about Government revenues and not about safety, etc. If the electric bicycle beomces too attractive an alternative to motorcycles, cars, etc, and large numbers of people adopt it, the Government will lose large amounts of money in the form of road tax, driving license fees, etc. This is the real bottom line. They do not want the electric bike to become a real serious alternative to cars or public transport. The 200 watt limit is just a token gesture to make ti look like the Government cares about ecology, while at the same time making it so unattractive to the average member of the public that only a small number of bike enthusiasts and devoted greens will adopt it – thus killing two birds with the one stone. Look green and still rip-off nice large somes of taz payers money.
Its always about money, never about logic and certainly never about doing what is right. This is the real world.
I have been using Elation every day for my 20 km ride to work.
I initially found the battery to flatten to quickly so i adjusted my riding style (not riding with the throttle wide open)and it gets me to work just as the battery is flat.Takes about 50 mins. Need to take charger with me always which adds to bike weight.I alternate between my new $1000 mountainbike (very light) and my Elation bike kit mounted to my older mountain bike to compare times and energy required for the journey.The electric is great when i’m too knackered to self propel. I tend to ride quick and am used to speed as i race a motorbike capable of 250km/h .I mention this as there seems to be much talk about cyclist not being able to control themselves when they hop on their mighty BEAST.It’s one thing to go fast,but the trick is stopping…! I don’t wear leathers whist cycling and the thought of hitting the ground scares me.I’ve crashed enough times on the track to know what leathers are for.Does anyone really what a bicycle that exceeds 40km/h while wearing lycra? Again, could YOU stop quick enough?
I am naughty and use a 300w motor which i consider fast/powerfull enough.This gets me to work 15mins slower than my motorbike but gets 2hrs of exercise a day,costs nothing to register,is solar charged when i get home.(non polluting,etc)
Sure , racing a motorbike and caring for the environment don’t seem to go hand in hand but in reality, i use as much fuel in a season as some use in a 2 weeks of driving to work.
Back to Elation. I have some issues with the quality of components but REALLY hope this electric bike thing catches on whatever your preference.
I have read all the post and the ugly bit with “outraged” vs Alland vs whoever was a little sad. Chin up old chaps.
i thought i’d share my months experience of riding one of these (legal) things….
i’m using my ebike daily (3x 2-3km trips per day, up and down hills both ways). it’s a 200w motor on 24vdc system using SLA batteries. motor is rear mounted turning a sproket on the left side of the rear wheel – no gears on the motor drive.
It takes about an hour or so to charge up after each of those journeys, but the batteries/charger are nothing to write home about. i’ve learnt SLA batteries like to stay charged, and last longer (in terms of wear and tear, not range) if they are charged whenever they’ve been discharged, hence why i do (and can) charge it immediately after riding.
i find the weight of the bike pretty heavy and without battery power is an absolute b*%ch to get up a hill. i’ve had a puncture from going off a gutter which is just down to the shear weight of the bike hitting the road. keep this in mind when looking at buying an ebike (and replace with heavy duty tubes). with batteries on-board they can handle like a large boat, are heavy to manouvure and slow to stop! i would NOT want to take someone out and so ride pretty slow when people are about.
with 200w and 100kg (me and my daughter with our gear) payload and you’re pedalling to get up the hills for sure. it will propel you on the flat (even from standing start) however, and my bike gets to about 23km/h before the motor is no longer assisting and cuts out. i don’t know i’d be comfortable doing more than about 30km/h in any sort of rough terrain or populated area, and i’ve riden alot of both bicycles and motorbikes in my time so are not by any means a novice. but i’m no moto-x or mountainer biker either.
i would say that any more than 10km distance and you’d be looking at running out of juice without alot of pedalling with this setup. but would be depending on hills – and i’ve not drained my batteries flat just for the sake of testing and risk damagign them. from research, lifepo4 batteries are the better technology for anyone serious about these things and you need about 20aH to get a decent range – but they come at a premium.
all things considered, this transport suits me down to the ground for what i’m using it for (me/my daughter to work/daycare and home again, with a trip home for lunch) in a heavy traffic area. i certainly beat the cars around the place by miles, but i ride on the footpath/cycleway (no chance i’m getting on a 3 lane road on a bike!).
with the right setup, you’ll do 20-30km/h for 20-30km range without too much effort. but if you don’t want to peddal you’d better be living in a dead flat area and taking it easy. the faster you go the quicker you lose the charge.
stolennomenclature – i’d be interested to know how you came to this conclusion, and hard facts? while i’m all for a conspiracy theory I would have thought it unlikely for them to spend any great deal of time and effort with this one. taking cars off the road also has financial benefits for the gov’t, even if not immediately obvious.
Hi All
Thought I would drop in to see how chat is going. Good to see some experiences being discussed.
Hi Jim
I am hoping you can give me more detail on the comment “I have some issues with the quality of components…” as I have not had email from you saying such.
I naturally want to continue to improve on any concerns clients have.
Others talking about weight and stability; yeah SLA normally have to be mounted on rear carrier which places a heavy weight high and rear, a natural dnager for any balancing act. Any addition to a bike needs to be low (eg paniier bags), and ideally centred.
Riding ANY type of electric bike does need some change to riding style to maximise the benefits. Most people adjsut the their own changes within a couple of weeks of riding.
I think any important point to consider again with ANy electric bike is that maximum efficency and indeed maximum torque is NOt achieved at full speed, the only thing achieved at full motor speed in maxiumum power. Normall most electric motors are most efficient at approx 80% full power.
At present any realistic “instrument panel” for an electric bike is outside the cost of what most people wish to pay. We are currently looking at sourcing an OEM addition.
This type of equipment greatly improves performance due to feedback on riding style, etc. It is like trying to drive a car with a simple fuel gauge, nothing else vs existing instrument panels.
Finally Hi Brian
Even on a ‘normal’ bike, changing front gears under load is a big no-no. The chain is being ‘controlled’ on the load side and so any front gear change under load is a traumatic experience on the drive train.
Rear gears can be changed while powering since the chain is being controlled on the unloaded sdie of chain and so fully toothed by time load is applied.
So the best advice is to use the front gear as to accomodate sections of hill rides (low gear), flat cruise ride (2nd) and speed/overtake (high), by changing gear without any power inclduing leg, just BEFORE condition arises. Then use rear gears to ‘fine tune’ your ride.
Hope this helps more.
Cheers
Allan
Alland – the hard facts are that this is how Governments and human nature work. People serve their own self interest first, and the interest of others second. Tell me why Governments charge more for three year driving licenses than one year ones? Handing out three year licenses saves them work, and the licenses themselves are the same (costs, the card, etc). So why charge more if not simply to raise revenue?
In England I had my driving license issued for life – but then that was because the Government ran out of resources.
The big problem with motor power is that the power required to get the bike up steep hills also allows it to give the bike a relatively high top speed on the flat. What you need is technology that limits the top speed but also that cannot be easily bypassed by the rider. I suspect this is actually almost impossible to achieve (at a reasonable cost at any rate), certainly when you consider conversion kits which are installed by the rider to any ordinary bicycle.
Perhaps the government could consider a new class of vehicle which needs to be registered but without the yearly inspections, which can be ridden by anyone with any vehicle license (car, motorbike, etc), which is heavier (more like a moped), with wide tires, substantial brakes, motor up to 1.5 Kw, with or without pedals.
Hi stolennomenclature, and others 🙂
I promise next time Kevin or Malcolm are over for dinner I will raise issues of licence fees 🙂
With regard to high power for hills vs flats; your statement is not totally true. High TORQUE will get you up hills, but not give high speeds. This is achieved through gears and proper design. All more power does (without gearing) is use more power than is not needed. The same as smashing walnuts with sledge hammers.
Quote “…reasonable cost”. Cost is relative. The average electric bike will pay for itself in less than a year for commuters. We cannot keep up with sales, so price can’t be too bad.
What confuses me though is that you follow this straight up with a suggestion for “…new class of vehicle “, which would clearly cost a lot more.
Another confusion is that in earlier posts you suggest we are over regulated, “They do not want the electric bike to become a real serious alternative to cars or public transport.”, but in your later entry you want to ‘regulate’ top speed via electronics!!!
Your suggestion re a larger powered vechicle does already exist, it IS called a moped. I assume you are from NSW if you have yearly inspections. We do not have these inspections in QLD.
Unfortunately people continue to think more power is the complete answer. Sadly it is not. It is better to start with proper design. That includes the electric bike itself, transport infrastructure, etc. AND RIDERS
I agree with Alland but I think that 200W is a ridiculous low output limit and it should be increased to make electric bicycles an easy, practical and popular transport solution like in China, USA and Canada. I think it’s quite easy to limit the speed of eclectic motors by just using geared motors which are not faster than 30Km on the flat. I don’t think that you need to have an additional power cut off circuit in the controller. Every push bike will be faster than 30Km hill down but geared motors will even slow you down above a certain speed. I’m almost certain that the government will increase the power output sooner or later. I believe that using cars will become more a privilege in the future for occasional use only or business purposes. China, India and other Asian countries are catching up economical very fast and more and more people can afford cars in these countries. If every family in China and India would have 1 to 2 cars then you would have an additional 2 billion cars world wide. This would be an environmental disaster and it can not happen. Not to mention what will happen with petrol and food prices. In Europe the governments encourage people to use push bikes and electric bikes and most middle European countries already have a great infrastructure for bicycle in place. How can you explain to all other countries that we Australian can not change our car culture and continue to damage the environment? We haven’t even started to build bike ways in many cities. Shame, Shame, Shame! We are the top environmental vandals in the world. We point the finger to China and complain about their pollution. But we actually are producing much more pollution per head than people in China and you also should add the manufacture pollution of all those products we import from China to our heads. It makes China very green and environmental friendly compared to Australia. We simple can not continue like this and we need to change. Australian politicians are extremely slow in getting this message and finding good solutions. Most middle European countries are about 15 years ahead with environmental solutions. Denmark already produces more than 75% of their energy by windmills. Most people in Denmark, Holland and northern part of Germany are using their bikes more than their cars. Australia has many hills in most capital cities and so we should use more high powered electric bicycles. I don’t see any other better and economical solution to cut down CO2 emissions of cars. The best thing is that you actually will save a lot of money by using an electrical bike and maybe even put some pressure on oil companies to keep petrol cheap. This will keep our food and good prices lower. There was an output limit of 200W in some European countries before and they have increased it to 250W. New Zealand has an output power limit of 300W which is more practical for a hilly landscape. It’s just a shame that our Australian high paid politicians doing not a good job, spending more time to drag each other into the mud than finding and passing good solutions to our problems. A car produces about 100 times more emission than an electric bike and on average there is only 1.5 people in a car each trip. Moving 1 to 2 tons of metal to carry a load of 120Kg is like filling a big family spa pool with fresh water just to have your daily shower. I haven’t found any article about the danger of 500W electric bicycles or any negative report or impact study about electric bicycles themselves. Nobody is suggesting that the 500W power limit in any North American countries should be decreased. Does anyone have seen any negative feedback? Please let me know about this.
Hi all,
I came across this site while researching electric bike information. I am wondering if someone can point me in the right direction of a forum on electric bikes?
The reason I ask is I have owned an electric bike for about 3 years. It’s an EMAXI Swift that has a 200W motor connected by chain to the rear wheel. 24V SLA 12Ah battery system.
I rely mostly on the motor as I have a bad hip and so can only pedal with one leg. I have been through two sets of SLA’s which I am sick of because they die during winter when they are not used. Probably my fault as they are not charged regularly when not in use.
I am not going to get a third set of SLA’s so I am looking at upgrading to LiFePO4 batteries instead. I have found some 24V 10Ah (also 15Ah or 20Ah) battery kits advertised on the net which come with a charger.
I am trying to find out if I can simply buy a 24V 10Ah LiFePO4 battery pack and hook it up to my existing system?
Also whether this is my best option or not.
There seem to be such a range of battery volatages on the market and ranges of amp hours that it is very confusing. The 24V 10Ah LiFePO4 seems best suited for my 200W motor though from my research.
I figure the LiFePO4 batteries are a lot more expensive but are likely to last for several years compared to the crappy SLA’s that I have previously experienced. A lot lighter too hopefully as well which would be a big improvement as the bike is already 37kgs as it is. (I weigh only 60kgs).
If someone can point me in the right direction or provide some advice it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Hi , Bryan.
http://WWW.endless-sphere.com
Find lots of info
Regards Trevor.
Bryan, sorry,thats slash forums on the end.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums
Trevor
Hello All,
Back again, I thought that I would let you know about the study by Monash Uni, found on the Cycling Promotion web site. They actually spoke to government departments, politicians, did trials and looked up hard international data. You can find it here: Power_Assisted_Bicycles_Final_Report_Monash_Uni.pdf
The report expected the National Road Transport Commission to resolve these sorts of issues on a regular 12-18month basis. That was back in 2003.
I don’t have the same dark view of the government as stolennomenclature, but agree that the government doesn’t have enough political will to make changes. This is partly because of the difficulty. They have to make it safe, they have to make it useful and they have to write the legislation so that everybody is clear about its meaning. Finally, they have to make it enforceable and given that police don’t carry around portable dynamometers, enforcing power limits is problematic.
The report mentioned above says that the government/politicians are concerned about tampering with any sort of power/speed limiting devices. The report also claims that progress will be slow, because since 1999, and the national uniform road rules, all of the states have to agree to the changes.
I am on record above as saying that 200w is sufficient power assist. This is because it is supposed to be “assist” and even 200w is enough to propel a fit rider (on a well designed e-bike – hey AllanD) along at insane speeds.
I have changed my opinion (as if anybody cares). Power is too blunt an instrument to use to regulate power assisted bicycles. Just increasing its limit to overcome a hill problem will cause more problems with kids riding up and down the street at 60kph instead of 40kph. Furthermore the police do not carry the equipment to measure it. There is not much point limiting power, I now think that there should not be any limit on power.
Speed is a much better thing to limit than power. But it is not without its problems. The higher the limit, the more people will take up e-biking instead of driving (and this is a good thing). At the same time, you don’t want to put young kids in charge of vehicles capable of serious speed. You also do not want ratbags ripping down the footpath at speed just because it is now easy. I think that there are lots of options, it just needs some sensible decisions.
Craig B
(I repeat my previous comments, that whether a rider pedals or not, should not be important. This requirement just excludes people.)
We’re moving discussion on electric bikes and limits over to the latest post: Clarifying The Electric Bike Power Upgrade Discussion, a guest post from Craig B.